correct to slow down against fishy opponent.

The_Don90 · November 2010

Ok this is against possibly the loosest player i know of on Sky Poker. literally any two suited, any two cards within 3 cards of eachother and any face card would call an all in pre.

Anyways so the situation as below i have KK UTG so i raise to 20p, i know this opponent is capable of 3-betting with any pocket pair, and a couple of other people on the table are also likley to 3-bet an opponent such as myself.

The flop comes a little drawy, i know one opponent in the hand would call with anything that remotley hits this board, bottom pair, straight draw etc.

Anyways what your opinion here.

Also the call on the river is in all honesty a crying call.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£6.57
	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£2.53
	Your hole cards	K K
The_Don90	Raise		£0.20	£0.26	£3.76
	Call		£0.20	£0.46	£19.88
	Call		£0.18	£0.64	£6.39
	Fold
Flop
		J 3 5
	Check
The_Don90	Bet		£0.64	£1.28	£3.12
	Fold
	Call		£0.64	£1.92	£5.75
Turn
		6
	Check
The_Don90	Check
River
		7
	Bet		£1.52	£3.44	£4.23
The_Don90	Call		£1.52	£4.96	£1.60
	Show	9 3
The_Don90	Show	K K
The_Don90	Win	Pair of Kings	£4.59		£6.19

shelski · November 2010

In Response to correct to slow down against fishy opponent.:
You shouldn't be asking this.
Your whole approach is skewed,
Take a bit of time out, then think carefully. It would appear from this and other posts your confidence is shattered.
Happens.
Please take a bit of time out and enjoy yourself.

The_Don90 · November 2010

In Response to Re: correct to slow down against fishy opponent.:

In Response to correct to slow down against fishy opponent. : You shouldn't be asking this. Your whole approach is skewed, Take a bit of time out, then think carefully. It would appear from this and other posts your confidence is shattered. Happens. Please take a bit of time out and enjoy yourself.
Posted by shelski

Shelski i know you mean well in your responce here, although this is a total situational hand. Against any other opponent in the world i trebble barrel this board. however when the turn completes the straight draw i get a little worried against an opponent who is more than willing to go to war with nothing more than a draw.

I also know a check/call on river is the right play im still crushing their range, and they will fire out, but im just so unsure that slowing down is the correct play

KAM99 · November 2010

In Response to Re: correct to slow down against fishy opponent.:

In Response to Re: correct to slow down against fishy opponent. : Shelski i know you mean well in your responce here, although this is a total situational hand. Against any other opponent in the world i trebble barrel this board. however when the turn completes the straight draw i get a little worried against an opponent who is more than willing to go to war with nothing more than a draw. I also know a check/call on river is the right play im still crushing their range, and they will fire out, but im just so unsure that slowing down is the correct play
Posted by The_Don90

You already know the answer to this, and thats why you posted it. Yes, it was bad to slow down really. You can't limit the players range so tightly. I mean sure its possible if he is that loose that he has 47 or 24, but its pretty unlikely. You only find out by betting, and so you should definately have fired again on the turn, and better than half pot this time. If you get reraised at the turn, well thats a different story, but until then checking the turn bacause you are worried they may be holding an unlikely straight is not good.

As played I dont have an issue with just flatting the river overly as you could well behind at te river, but you got to the point where you had no idea where you were because you stopped betting.

As said above, if its a confidence issue due to some suckouts/badbeats then take a break, as I'm sure you know playing with fear is a killer at the poker tables.

debdobs_67 · November 2010

Gotta agree with kammy here,what i dont understand is you ARE a very capable cash player and IF you are having a confidence problem then you need to take heed of some of the advice given above,xxx

The_Don90 · November 2010

In Response to Re: correct to slow down against fishy opponent.:

In Response to Re: correct to slow down against fishy opponent. : You already know the answer to this, and thats why you posted it. Yes, it was bad to slow down really. You can't limit the players range so tightly. I mean sure its possible if he is that loose that he has 47 or 24, but its pretty unlikely. You only find out by betting, and so you should definately have fired again on the turn, and better than half pot this time. If you get reraised at the turn, well thats a different story, but until then checking the turn bacause you are worried they may be holding an unlikely straight is not good. As played I dont have an issue with just flatting the river overly as you could well behind at te river, but you got to the point where you had no idea where you were because you stopped betting. As said above, if its a confidence issue due to some suckouts/badbeats then take a break, as I'm sure you know playing with fear is a killer at the poker tables.
Posted by KAM99

this is the only point here i dont get, ive potted the flop.

Anyways, maybe i give a loose opponent too much credit for a hand hes capable of calling with and that is why in honesty i posted the hand.

Maybe your right, maybe it is a confidence issue.

YOUNG_GUN · November 2010

If the caller will call any 2 i would bet more pre as much as you can which you will get called. Flop bet fine, suprised you didnt bet turn i would defo triple barrel that board think its a confidence problem here though Don too much paranoia that you have been outdrawn.

DOHHHHHHH · November 2010

In Response to correct to slow down against fishy opponent.:

Ok this is against possibly the loosest player i know of on Sky Poker. literally any two suited, any two cards within 3 cards of eachother and any face card would call an all in pre. Anyways so the situation as below i have KK UTG so i raise to 20p, i know this opponent is capable of 3-betting with any pocket pair, and a couple of other people on the table are also likley to 3-bet an opponent such as myself. The flop comes a little drawy, i know one opponent in the hand would call with anything that remotley hits this board, bottom pair, straight draw etc. Anyways what your opinion here. Also the call on the river is in all honesty a crying call. Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance Small blind £0.02 £0.02 £6.57 Big blind £0.04 £0.06 £2.53 Your hole cards K K The_Don90 Raise £0.20 £0.26 £3.76 Call £0.20 £0.46 £19.88 Call £0.18 £0.64 £6.39 Fold Flop J 3 5 Check The_Don90 Bet £0.64 £1.28 £3.12 Fold Call £0.64 £1.92 £5.75 Turn 6 Check The_Don90 Check River 7 Bet £1.52 £3.44 £4.23 The_Don90 Call £1.52 £4.96 £1.60 Show 9 3 The_Don90 Show K K The_Don90 Win Pair of Kings £4.59 £6.19
Posted by The_Don90

1- If he's that bad, how can you check the turn??? This is nl4, and you have pocket kings on a Jack high unpaired board with no flush possibilities. You HAVE to bet it. And bet it properly.

2- The flop is probably as dry as you're gonna get.

3- If he's as loose as you say he is pre flop, open for 40p+

4 - Nevermind crying call, I'm putting it all in on the river - Betting the turn would have made this automatic.

I hate the way u played this Donald, again, re-read your nl4 study, and take a holiday to value town.

DeucesLive · November 2010

if every time the board comes 3 to a straight you assume a fish has the straight, then you need to take a long hard look at your game. If nothing else, ASK HIM if he has the straight- don't check and give him a freebie to complete on the end. 3 to a straight means there's a reasonable chance he has a card somewhere to give him the up and down or a gutshot, which means you HAVE to make him pay to see it- and if he's as loose as you say, he will pay you off every single day. If the last card comes down straighty, so be it. Jam against him, and on the occasions he does have it- nh wp. On the (far more) occasions he doesn't- reap the rewards.

Gotta be prepared to take the odd beat if you want to get maximum value- as dohhh said, the critical error here is not betting that turn, you absolutely have to dump in a bet of 1.50 or so there to set up the river shove for his stack.

donkeyplop · November 2010

next time just pot bet the turn!

simples.

scotty77 · November 2010

bet turn.

you describe him as very loose then give him a chance to hit. i don't understand

silentbob · November 2010

Hi Don

You're a decent enough player to know that you've normally got to be getting your whole stack in one way or another in this hand (except with the way you've played it on this occasion). As a couple of others have touched on, this hand comes down to confidence & nothing else. To be fair, I totally understand that cos I seem to having a similar thing myself at the moment, but even then I'm never slowing down here.

I wanna get paid with these hands against these types of players & if he happens to have hit the straight or two pair or whatever then I swear at the screen, throw a little tantrum that no one else can see & accept that it's just variance kicking me in the nuts again, safe in the knowledge that if I keep doing that then over time I'm gonna win a whole lot more than I'm gonna lose.

As JJ said, if you bet on the turn then getting it in on the river is so much easier.

The_Don90 · November 2010

Similar hand v same opponent. This time i get it in on turn, whoops drawing dead.

So should i slow down here or played correct

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
The_Don90	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£3.83
	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£2.20
	Your hole cards	A A
	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£13.02
	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£1.65
	Call		£0.04	£0.18	£3.09
	Call		£0.04	£0.22	£3.20
The_Don90	Raise		£0.38	£0.60	£3.45
	Call		£0.36	£0.96	£1.84
	Fold
	Fold
	Call		£0.36	£1.32	£2.73
	Fold
Flop
		J 6 9
The_Don90	Bet		£1.32	£2.64	£2.13
	Fold
	Call		£1.32	£3.96	£1.41
Turn
		10
The_Don90	All-in		£2.13	£6.09	£0.00
	All-in		£1.41	£7.50	£0.00
The_Don90	Unmatched bet		£0.72	£6.78	£0.72
The_Don90	Show	A A
	Show	7 8
River
		2
	Win	Straight to the Jack	£6.28		£6.28

scotty77 · November 2010

how can you 'slow down'. villain has 35bb back. pot is 100bb by turn anyway. even if the villain is a nitty reg its a standard all in.

The_Don90 · November 2010

so even on that board thats the correct play?

DeucesLive · November 2010

of course it's the right play, he only has 78 and QK for the straight- sure, some 2 pair combos are out there but there's only flush draws out, no completed flushes. Against a massively loose player you'd get his stack if he had a flush draw or single pair anyway, so you know yourself it's +EV to be getting your stack in. For the one time he has a made straight/set/2 pair or rivers his flush he'll have a raggy dominated hand/busted flush 2 or 3 times, if not more. The more times you get your stack in against this player with a strong hand the better- the more you start trying to think about what he may have and slowing down, the more you're going to miss out on and as above- get stung by the rare occasions he's got the goods.

YOUNG_GUN · November 2010

second hand standard donny played fine against any 2 merchant who calls 36p pre with 78 off perfect just ul, good bet on flop aim to get on turn but he hits his miracle card never mind reload

KAM99 · November 2010

Hi Don

Nope nothing much wrong at all with last hand. You had nearly half your stack already in by the turn and so no real way to get off it. So this time he had one of the hands that beat you. Odds are that with the way he plays you get paid way more off him in the long run, as luck only goes so far.

One thing that did strike me though. Do you always pot the flop with overs? Kind of curious if this is your standard, and what you do with normal Cbets, or on miss flops etc. Just curious as might be something you need to watch in the long term, as while no-one at 2/4 is likely to notice, they sure will start to notice betting tells as you move up.

The_Don90 · November 2010

In Response to Re: correct to slow down against fishy opponent.:

Hi Don Nope nothing much wrong at all with last hand. You had nearly half your stack already in by the turn and so no real way to get off it. So this time he had one of the hands that beat you. Odds are that with the way he plays you get paid way more off him in the long run, as luck only goes so far. One thing that did strike me though. Do you always pot the flop with overs? Kind of curious if this is your standard, and what you do with normal Cbets, or on miss flops etc. Just curious as might be something you need to watch in the long term, as while no-one at 2/4 is likely to notice, they sure will start to notice betting tells as you move up.
Posted by KAM99

i have a very specific game for NL4 and it usually involves getting the stack in. Should have remebered that during KK hand.

I play differently elsewhere.

The_Don90 · November 2010

heres another one where i slow down,

OK a different situation altogher and in a MTT what you guys think of this one?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
	Small blind		15.00	15.00	4467.50
	Big blind		30.00	45.00	4395.00
	Your hole cards	Q Q
	Call		30.00	75.00	5480.00
	Fold
The_Don90	Raise		120.00	195.00	5202.50
	Fold
	Call		105.00	300.00	4362.50
	Call		90.00	390.00	4305.00
	Call		90.00	480.00	5390.00
Flop
		8 10 J
	Bet		240.00	720.00	4122.50
	Fold
	Fold
The_Don90	Raise		480.00	1200.00	4722.50
	Call		240.00	1440.00	3882.50
Turn
		A
	Check
The_Don90	Check
River
		5
	Bet		720.00	2160.00	3162.50
The_Don90	Call		720.00	2880.00	4002.50
	Show	4 J
The_Don90	Show	Q Q
The_Don90	Win	Pair of Queens	2880.00		6882.50

beaneh · November 2010

Slowing down in mtts is more acceptable, when you're playing cash against 'the loosest player ever' you need to be betting the turn strong when you have an overpair.

The_Don90 · November 2010

In Response to Re: correct to slow down against fishy opponent.:

Slowing down in mtts is more acceptable, when you're playing cash against 'the loosest player ever' you need to be betting the turn strong when you have an overpair.
Posted by beaneh

thanks for respone, in the mtt handthis opponent was also loose expext to see JxXs in his had J4d was a big shock.

KAM99 · November 2010

Really don't like your flop play here Don. All you do with a min raise is build a pot with a really fricking wet board. So he is calling with any pair and any draw here. So why did you do a min raise? If you want him off a draw raise bigger. Donk bets so often an information bet as to if their hand is good, or they do have a big hand and they are worried about board texture themselves. So your bet gets no real answer as to which, even with him just flatting the reraise.

On the turn I'm kind of thinking there is method in checking against some players for pot size control, and so I don't have huge issue with a check and call on river, but in this case I think the guys happy to donk bet the flop, and then checks the turn you are likely ahead still and could likely take the pot there rather than give a free card. Sure its possible he was on KQ, but its a strange play on the flop if he is leading out into the preflop raiser when he may get raised completely off his draw.

Anyway thats my thoughts. I'd have been putting the guy on a draw on the Jack and his donk bet was for information about if his jack was good, and your min raise meant he was just priced in to call, so you got no info and made the pot bigger. Don't like this as a general rule.

correct to slow down against fishy opponent.

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