Tough spot for queens?

DeucesLive

25/50- a little above my normal limit, but seeing how I cope there. Nothing really out of line, people 3 bet a little lighter but 4 bets are pretty rare. What's your take on the play? 4 better hasn't been out of line at all, not been involved in a massive amount of hands- 3 better is a little looser on the trigger. Flatting's out of the question- so shove and pray or fold?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
xxxx	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£127.86
bandini	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£48.56
	Your hole cards	Q Q
SoLack	Fold
DeucesLive	Raise		£2.00	£2.75	£52.91
xxxx	Call		£2.00	£4.75	£59.26
xxxx	Raise		£7.00	£11.75	£48.48
xxxx	Raise		£21.00	£32.75	£106.86
bandini	Fold
DeucesLive	????

LOL_RAISE

definate fold on sky at nl50 imo his sizing is so bad hes never bluffing and i alot of people will just 4bet shove AK here

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens?:

definate fold on sky at nl50 imo his sizing is so bad hes never bluffing and i alot of people will just 4bet shove AK here
Posted by LOL_RAISE

.....can u explain this for me plzzzzzzzzzz ?

N1CK

his 4 bet is so small its screaming to be called and the fact he will be out of position just says MONSTER

beaneh

his 4 bet is ruddy massive lol

DOHHHHHHH

I watched a hand a few weeks ago, it was blind on blind....

AJS v LjamesL......

No action, and it gets to AJS in't little blind....

like 140ish BB deep

Im pretty sure the last action, was James calling AJS's 6 bet shove - ????????????????

They both had aces btw.

What's that all about then? (the final shove was still a pretty big 1!!!!)

N1CK

In Response to ...:

his 4 bet is ruddy massive lol
Posted by beaneh

its not massive in respect to what already in the pot and into 3 players

christiann

Standard 4 bet sizing surely, considering the pot?

beaneh

In Response to Re:...:

In Response to ... : its not massive in respect to what already in the pot and into 3 players
Posted by N1CK

it is. lol

4bb

4bb

14bb

42beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeb

from 100. lots of room left to manouvre.

beaneh

In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens?:

I watched a hand a few weeks ago, it was blind on blind.... AJS v LjamesL...... No action, and it gets to AJS in't little blind.... like 140ish BB deep Im pretty sure the last action, was James calling AJS's 6 bet shove - ???????????????? They both had aces btw. What's that all about then? (the final shove was still a pretty big 1!!!!)
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

what does this even mean?

are you really asking how or why two players blind on blind with aces got it in with multiple raises??? .....

DOHHHHHHH

It was in response to the guy who suggested the raise in this hand was so small, that it just screamed strength. (Quote "his 4 bet is so small its screaming to be called and the fact he will be out of position just says MONSTER")

In the hand above, with the big hitters, there were several raises that were just above min raises. I think it went, 4xbb, 11xbb, 24xbb, 48xbb, all in.

So assuming Nick was right about the 4 bet being so obviously strong (I don't know either way myself) - then surely the sizing in the hand I described is absolutely terrible?

But now it seems LOL_RAISE criticised the guys raise size because it was too big??? (quote - "his sizing is so bad")

Maybe Lol_Raise will explain what he meant when he sees this, coz I'm confused.

hurst05

cry and then fold. unless hes been making plays like that alot in which case i stick it in his eye. then cry when he turns over AA and you think to yourself (frickin card rack) 

LOL_RAISE

yes his sizing is huge if a player shoves on him he will be getting almost 3:1 on his money which means he has to call with virtually every hand he has so he is almost never bluffing here.

100bb deep i personally would never 4bet higher than like 26bbs, if villains 3bet sizing is huge making a small 4bet impossible id either flat the 3bet or 4bet shove.


DOHHH its kinda like the hand you went on about, someone 5betting 48bbs preflop is just never a bluff unless you are like 250bb+ deep and have a huge 3bet/4bet dynamic going on.

beaneh

In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens?:

It was in response to the guy who suggested the raise in this hand was so small, that it just screamed strength. ( Quote " his 4 bet is so small its screaming to be called and the fact he will be out of position just says MONSTER ") In the hand above, with the big hitters, there were several raises that were just above min raises. I think it went, 4xbb, 11xbb, 24xbb, 48xbb, all in. So assuming Nick was right about the 4 bet being so obviously strong (I don't know either way myself) - then surely the sizing in the hand I described is absolutely terrible? But now it seems LOL_RAISE criticised the guys raise size because it was too big??? (quote - "his sizing is so bad" ) Maybe Lol_Raise will explain what he meant when he sees this, coz I'm confused.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

you didn't describe the sizing..

I would say standard sizing normally would be roughly (100bbe) 3x-9x-21x (150bbe)3x-9x-21x-35x

The pot above has a 4x and a flat before the squeeze comes in so a 4 bet against that is always going to look strong and going to be relatively large.

4 betting in the above scenario to £15 has little difference to 4 betting to £21.

The £21 is also pretty much never a bluff.

TommyD

ok, the 4bet:

A pot bet would be 25.5 total, a raise of 18.5.  He has raised it to 21 with 14 on top of the previous bet.  In terms of BB it is a jump as Beaneh has said but as LOL has said he's bet less than the pot (around 4/5).  I wouldn't call it very small but hey.  Just depends how you look at the betting.

In terms of the hand, discretion beats valour here, fold unless on a table of crazy people.

beaneh

loolraise we should discuss before we post the same nonsense at the same time lawl

beaneh

In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens?:

ok, the 4bet: A pot bet would be 25.5 total, a raise of 18.5.  He has raised it to 21 with 14 on top of the previous bet.  In terms of BB it is a jump as Beaneh has said but as LOL has said he's bet less than the pot (around 4/5).  I wouldn't call it very small but hey.  Just depends how you look at the betting. In terms of the hand, discretion beats valour here, fold unless on a table of crazy people.
Posted by TommyD

his bet size in relation to what a pot raise would be isn't as important as the relative amount of stacks (nearly half) that are going in with the 4 bet.

DeucesLive

Yea, cheers for the feedback guys- I knew in my heart it was the right fold, and that I was almost 100% behind to the 4 bet, but just wanted confirmation that it definitely is a +ev move to fold queens in a spot like that. I guess I was a little confused by the shove from the 3 bet guy after I folded, and his response of 'cold deck, what can you do'. To me it seemed a fairly straightforward fold in that spot.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
xxxx	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£127.86
bandini	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£48.56
	Your hole cards	Q Q
SoLack	Fold
DeucesLive	Raise		£2.00	£2.75	£52.91
TommyD	Call		£2.00	£4.75	£59.26
zzzz	Raise		£7.00	£11.75	£48.48
xxxx	Raise		£21.00	£32.75	£106.86
bandini	Fold
DeucesLive	Fold
TommyD	Fold
zzzz	Raise		£29.50	£62.25	£18.98
xxxx	All-in		£106.86	£169.11	£0.00
zzzz	All-in		£18.98	£188.09	£0.00
xxxx	Unmatched bet		£72.63	£115.46	£72.63
xxxx	Show	K K
zzzz	Show	J J
Flop
		6 3 K
Turn
		10
River
		2
xxxx	Win	Three Kings	£113.66		£186.29

LOL_RAISE

In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens?:

 but just wanted confirmation that it definitely is a +ev move to fold queens i
Posted by DeucesLive

im going to be a super nit picker and point out that folding as an expected value of 0. always.


ps beaneh lrn 2 type faster

sikas

yeah defo fold, Villains Bet-sizing was fine imo

Unknown

In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens?:

yeah defo fold, Villains Bet-sizing was fine imo
Posted by sikas

It's only 'fine' because he had a very strong hand, and to be honest the fact he made QQ fold preflop is pretty horrendous.

If your 4bet sizing is always this huge with KK+, then you are never going to be able to mix in 4betting bluffs, or you will be forced to call it off everytime.

jgn

a defo fold its seems like kk or aa from  after the 2 bet no one would slow play those hands.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens?:

In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens? : im going to be a super nit picker and point out that folding as an expected value of 0. always. ps beaneh lrn 2 type faster
Posted by LOL_RAISE

nit picking is not the word i would use lol, lol-raise i think you should write an article on what ev actually means as its commonly misinterpreted in lots of posts

N1CK

In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens?:

In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens? : It's only 'fine' because he had a very strong hand, and to be honest the fact he made QQ fold preflop is pretty horrendous. If your 4bet sizing is always this huge with KK+, then you are never going to be able to mix in 4betting bluffs, or you will be forced to call it off everytime.
Posted by CoxyLboro

do players really 4 bet bluff in this particular spot at nl50? there is a time and place for balancing play but i really dont think this is a good spot for it, would you call a 4 bet to £15 holding qq there? or would you be more inclined to get your money in if he shoved?

DeucesLive

if a decision is +ev, it means you're going to be making more money than you lose, long term, in that spot- even if that particular time you're behind. Correct? Expected value is simply the amount you win (or lose) from making a play, based on odds.

I can accept that, technically, folding will always have an EV of 0, since you can never ever make money by folding- but you can save yourself money by folding in -EV situations (where by calling/shoving you lose more than you win, long term) thereby, for that session, making folding a +EV move. Your expected value from your session will be raised by getting out of the way in these hands. That's how I view it, anyway.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Tough spot for queens?:

if a decision is +ev, it means you're going to be making more money than you lose, long term, in that spot- even if that particular time you're behind. Correct? Expected value is simply the amount you win (or lose) from making a play, based on odds. I can accept that, technically, folding will always have an EV of 0, since you can never ever make money by folding- but you can save yourself money by folding in -EV situations (where by calling/shoving you lose more than you win, long term) thereby, for that session, making folding a +EV move. Your expected value from your session will be raised by getting out of the way in these hands. That's how I view it, anyway.
Posted by DeucesLive

i have never really thought about ev over a session always on one particular hand/play, maybe this is someones theory im not familiar with, do you know how to calculate Ev? i can write something later about this when i get back if it helps