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W T eff does this even meeeeannnn??

edited December 2010 in The Poker Clinic
pryce6 Small blind  25.00 25.00 2120.00
Biscuit999 Big blind  50.00 75.00 2645.00
  Your hole cards
  • 10
  • Q
     
UNCLE_PAT Fold     
leapylee57 Fold     
xxx Call  50.00 125.00 2050.00
FatHarry Fold     
pryce6 Call  25.00 150.00 2095.00
Biscuit999 Check     
Flop
   
  • Q
  • 3
  • 2
     
pryce6 Check     
Biscuit999 Check     
xxxBet  100.00 250.00 1950.00
pryce6 Call  100.00 350.00 1995.00
Biscuit999 Fold     
Turn
   
  • 4
     
pryce6 Check     
xxxBet  500.00 850.00 1450.00
pryce6 ???  
I don't mind seeing a cheap flop, the c bet looks weak, I feel like I have him beat like all the time here, then suddenly this sick overbet comes in.

My questions are, why has he done this? Does he want me to fold? Is he scared of this board? What are his likely holdings?

Basically overbets confuse the **** out of me, I hardly use them (unless it's a shippp) and I had no idea where I was. I realise the easy decision is to fold but if some better players can explain the thinking behind this spot/play that would be great.

Comments

  • edited December 2010
    Why would you check on the flop? Its asking for trouble

    The check on flop is terrible and the check on the turrn even worse. you induced the overbet and basically you might as well have laid it down pre-flop.

    You flat called pre so surely you must 3 bet the flop to ask questions and find out where u are? as played all you are doing is inducing the overbet?.

    Now that the hand has been played to the turn though - things are looking up...................  

    looking at the board - its a shove ftw.
  • edited December 2010
    im struggling to see why u didnt raise PF cant limp in with q10 ur supposed to be a good player fwiw its an instant instant fold !! terrible spot imo
  • edited December 2010
    2 pretty strong opinions so far !!! - I don't see any point in raising pre flop.

    I don't mind the way you have played it so far, although I would probably lead the flop rather than check/call. Probably lead the turn too if he just flats, then maybe check call the river.

    Like you, I have no idea what his turn bet means. 

    Another clinic post from DOHHHHHHH which admits he has no clue how to play mtt's!
  • edited December 2010
    I'd either lead out the flop or check raise, I don't like the check call- especially with such a weak bet.

    I don't mind the check to induce the c-bet, but I'd then raise it up to 3/400, and lead out strongly on the turn.

    If you think you have the best hand here (and I think you do) then bet it strongly.
  • edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: W T eff does this even meeeeannnn??:
    I'd either lead out the flop or check raise, I don't like the check call- especially with such a weak bet. I don't mind the check to induce the c-bet, but I'd then raise it up to 3/400, and lead out strongly on the turn. If you think you have the best hand here (and I think you do) then bet it strongly.
    Posted by DeucesLive


    THIS
  • edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: W T eff does this even meeeeannnn??:
    im struggling to see why u didnt raise PF cant limp in with q10 ur supposed to be a good player fwiw its an instant instant fold !! terrible spot imo
    Posted by JGIBBRFC
    lol maybe. I don't really want to bloat the pot out of position in a bounty hunter against limp calling fish.

    In response to the last two posts. How often will I be called by a hand I'm beating if I check raise? I saw the bet as weak, so felt like calling to let him carry on with possible weaker hands - whilst also controlling the size of the pot. Obv this didn't work as the turn bet is like woah.

    Fwiw I don't really like raising to 'ask the question', in this spot w/e answer I get isn't going to be great. Even if he folds it's like great he folded a worse hand - go me.
  • edited December 2010
    And if he has flush/straight draw, and you sit back and let him get to the river for nothing, then what? If he hits you're losing money, if he doesn't you're not getting any more.

    Raising isn't solely to fold out inferior hands, it's to fold out drawing hands OR make drawing hands pay to catch their card. If he's sat there with 2 spades, your raise will probably get called, then when he misses the turn- a solid bet probably gets the job done without any hassle. If he does stay involved, he's not getting anything like the price to. If he starts getting even more busy on the flop, then you have a decision- either he wants all the money in with a draw or he has you dominated. Decision time.

    As it is, the reason you're stuck now is because you have zero idea based on that flop play. My guess is, if the villain's halfway decent, he used that weak lead on flop either with a view to reraise you, or as a test to see how strong your hand is. By flatting, he guessed your hand probably isn't that strong, and is now trying to push you off.

    Personally... I dunno, it's tough. Board is dangerous, so he could be trying to take it down with 2 pair or a set. But my gut instinct puts him on a draw here, reading your hand as weak and trying to steal it off you. A lot depends on the tournament buyin, structure and how I'm feeling- I'd probably take the gamble and shove if the structure's quite quick.
  • edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: W T eff does this even meeeeannnn??:
    In Response to  Re: W T eff does this even meeeeannnn?? : lol maybe. I don't really want to bloat the pot out of position in a bounty hunter against limp calling fish. In response to the last two posts. How often will I be called by a hand I'm beating if I check raise? I saw the bet as weak, so felt like calling to let him carry on with possible weaker hands - whilst also controlling the size of the pot. Obv this didn't work as the turn bet is like woah. Fwiw I don't really like raising to 'ask the question', in this spot w/e answer I get isn't going to be great. Even if he folds it's like great he folded a worse hand - go me.
    Posted by pryce6
    AH its a bounty hunter, the over bet possibly means XXXX is hoping you are in love with a PP or top pair and he has run into more than that.  AND that he is more interested in trying to collect full payment than part payment. 

    You call XXXX a limp calling fish - its a BH players are constantly looking for a cheap flop and a connection and to be frank - you did this too - therefore you had no idea what you were facing and never found out - go XXXX ;-)
  • edited December 2010
    i would fold because we have so many stronger hands in our range that can call
  • edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: W T eff does this even meeeeannnn??:
    And if he has flush/straight draw, and you sit back and let him get to the river for nothing, then what? If he hits you're losing money, if he doesn't you're not getting any more. Raising isn't solely to fold out inferior hands, it's to fold out drawing hands OR make drawing hands pay to catch their card. If he's sat there with 2 spades, your raise will probably get called, then when he misses the turn- a solid bet probably gets the job done without any hassle. If he does stay involved, he's not getting anything like the price to. If he starts getting even more busy on the flop, then you have a decision- either he wants all the money in with a draw or he has you dominated. Decision time. As it is, the reason you're stuck now is because you have zero idea based on that flop play. My guess is, if the villain's halfway decent, he used that weak lead on flop either with a view to reraise you, or as a test to see how strong your hand is. By flatting, he guessed your hand probably isn't that strong, and is now trying to push you off. Personally... I dunno, it's tough. Board is dangerous, so he could be trying to take it down with 2 pair or a set. But my gut instinct puts him on a draw here, reading your hand as weak and trying to steal it off you. A lot depends on the tournament buyin, structure and how I'm feeling- I'd probably take the gamble and shove if the structure's quite quick.
    Posted by DeucesLive
    Ok I definitely get all that. Should I always be raising here? Maybe I've just watched too much poker on TV, just wanted to play small ball. I just thought at the time he was way more likely to have KQ-Q8/med PP/air than a spade draw. What if I raise - he flats, i bet turn, he shoves...I'm committed with not a great hand. I'm still learning - Maybe I should have looked to raise.

    RE Rattious - I completed, I would never limp this hand in pos, certainly not limp call a raise. I used the term limp calling fish because if I raised this hand from the sb, 90percent of randoms would call the raise anyway, so I'm bloating the pot oop.

    Because he had been limping I immediately tagged him as a weaker player, therefore was happy to c/c and re evaluate turn. He just threw me with the overbet, I guess he outplayed me, I had no idea what hand he would do that with. I think I should have led the turn.  
  • edited December 2010
    In Response to Re: W T eff does this even meeeeannnn??:
    2 pretty strong opinions so far !!! - I don't see any point in raising pre flop. I don't mind the way you have played it so far, although I would probably lead the flop rather than check/call. Probably lead the turn too if he just flats, then maybe check call the river. Like you, I have no idea what his turn bet means.  Another clinic post from DOHHHHHHH which admits he has no clue how to play mtt's!
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    i dont doubt for 1 sec dohhhh that u are a talented player but could u explain to me when and why is it ever a good idea to limp with q10s its a fold or raise imo but hey what do i know :)
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