When's the right time to start racing in Deep Stacks... Especially against maniacs.

Smudgesmit

Many say you have to win your races to win tournys and although I can see some logic in this, is it the best way?

I raise the question following a Deep Stack I've just finished 12th in (only 48 in it so no return).  I have looked back over my play and feel I played well up to the end of the 2nd hour.  I was 5th of 20 with a maniac villian who would shove allin to any raise from any player.  I had him covered and decided to make a stand a I figured his pre flop allin to my pock 66 gave me a def. race.  s

If I won the race I was chip leader and sitting pretty for the final table.  
If I lost the race I still had enough chips to play tight and try and claw my way back.

Needless to say his KJ hit two pair and crippled me.  
Although I made a small recovery I never got enough chips again to get the big stacks to fold and went out when my pock Ts  were busted by...  You guessed it KJ!

Was I right to take the maniac on in a race at this stage or should I have folded and waited for a dominating hand whilst hand him blind after blind? 

Smudgesmit

Here's the hand:

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
chelseaAA	Small blind		200.00	200.00	15645.00
Smudgesmit	Big blind		400.00	600.00	11258.75
	Your hole cards	6 6
taketheb8	Fold
MELfeaAYR	Fold
xxx	Call		400.00	1000.00	8735.00
chelseaAA	Fold
Smudgesmit	Raise		1600.00	2600.00	9658.75
xxx	All-in		8735.00	11335.00	0.00
Smudgesmit	Call		7135.00	18470.00	2523.75
Smudgesmit	Show	6 6
xxx	Show	J K
Flop
		10 K 3
Turn
		J
River
		7
xxx	Win	Two Pairs, Kings and Jacks	18470.00

Talon

 For me i do not like your line on this hand at all. You have given your reads on your opponent and then asked the wrong question at the wrong time.

  After saying he was shoving on every raise you then raised preflop and then had to make your decision.You should have realised before you raised what would happen so in reality you made your all-in decision with that initial raise not after his shove. The question you need to be asking is not should you have called but should you have raised.

  You were given the chance of taking a free flop and to go set mining but you chose to make it a race for his stack at that point with what is only a small pocket pair.One of the keys to playing poker is to ask questions and not just answer them. your raise did not ask any questions because you knew what he would do but he then asked you the question to give you a difficult answer to come up with.

 With the reads on your opponent you had 3 options preflop.You could check to see the flop an assess your hand then, shove all-in to put the stack decision on your opponent or raise to induce the shove from him.The option of raising and then wondering what to do is silly at best.For me personally with the stack you have and the fact that i play these quite tight i would have just taken the free flop and seen where i stood.

GaryQQQ

Fair enough, you need to make a stand sooner or later and I know situations like this are very frustrating, but with just a shade under 30BB in front I think I'd be waiting for something a bit stronger than 66 to get it all in pre-flop against a maniac. 66 has only 63% equity against 2 random cards, lets say he only calls the shove with the top 50% of all hands (that's still a wide range and includes things like J7o and 65s) your equity falls to 54%. Is this really a scenario in which you want to risk your tournament after 2 hours of play?

66 is good for shoving at weak/tight players who will fold almost everything, but it's a risky move against a maniac.

Smudgesmit

Thanks guys.

You're right.  I think my raise was my main error here.  I guess I fell into the trap of wanting to "teach a maniac a lesson" but should have waited for better situation!  Well it's a lesson learned just hope I remember it the next time something simular happens.

GaryQQQ

In Response to Re: When's the right time to start racing in Deep Stacks... Especially against maniacs.:

Thanks guys. You're right.  I think my raise was my main error here.  I guess I fell into the trap of wanting to "teach a maniac a lesson" but should have waited for better situation!  Well it's a lesson learned just hope I remember it the next time something simular happens.
Posted by Smudgesmit

Good post.

We've all done things like this in the heat of the moment, and many players will just carry on doing the same things forever, but if you're prepared to take the time to review key hands (like this) and discuss it with others you'll learn from your mistakes and improve your game.

loonytoons

in the first 2 levels there loadsa limping so bet with suited connectors, pairs and AJ (the nutz) AQ AK, if ya hit the flop then bet out, as for racing, i race in the first 3 levels only if i got QQ,KK,AA or AK, after that you need to pick ya spots, its ok to shove with your 6-6, but poor to call, saying that i finished last of 73 tonight in the deepy lol, i had A-10, flop came A-A-J all in he had AJ lol, but cest la vie.