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HU PLO300 Hand, river brings an interesting card...
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| CoxyLboro | Small blind | £1.50 | £1.50 | £757.90 | |
| V | Big blind | £3.00 | £4.50 | £561.40 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| CoxyLboro | Raise | £7.50 | £12.00 | £750.40 | |
| V | Raise | £24.00 | £36.00 | £537.40 | |
| CoxyLboro | Call | £18.00 | £54.00 | £732.40 | |
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| V | Check | ||||
| CoxyLboro | Bet | £40.50 | £94.50 | £691.90 | |
| V | Call | £40.50 | £135.00 | £496.90 | |
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| V | Check | ||||
| CoxyLboro | Bet | £101.25 | £236.25 | £590.65 | |
| V | Call | £101.25 | £337.50 | £395.65 | |
| River | |||||
| |||||
| V | Bet | £337.50 | |||
Talk amongst yourselves about villain's line, perceived range, my relative hand strength, his value hand strengths, and lets have a real omaha discussion! I will add my own opinions as thread grows.
Comments
In this hand your holding nowt and i don't see how the river is an interesting card. He has check called you all the way then when the poss flush hits, he basically says to you that he will call any re-raise. Lets look at what he might have that beats you, any 2 clubs, any 5x, pair of 3s, so i would have slowed down after the post flop call and would defo fold the river, in this situation, regardless of any previous, at the end of the day you only have 2 pair on a very wet board to your hand. Mind you if you have loads of spare money and dont give a monkeys then call to see the result.
col
If villan is calling light pre then im always gonna 4 bet pre.
Did you see villan mash the pot on the river b4 oop? was it missed draws or the nuts?
when he check calls as the pfr he is almost never going to have 2pair/set+ on the flop, neither is he going to have a huge draw, the fact that we have the Ac is absolutely huge imo as he can never have the nutflush which means what is he donking for pot on the river for value on a card that hits our range alot harder than it hits his range. Ax35ds perhaps. if he does have a boat its so much better to c/jam here rather than leading as we are going to be betting this river a ton for both value and as a bluff.
at first when you look at it its like "oh we have an overpair on a paired board with a flush completing i fold" but his value hand range is so incredibly small here i think it is a call.
although prewtty sure coxy was just like "LOL TOP TWO PAIR I CAWL"
HIs check calling on 2 streets cries out that he has very little if anything but he might get lucky. The problem is made worse by the fact that you have effectively bluffed for 2 streets with a weak holding and no redraws.So now on the river you are faced with a big bet into a pot which you have been building up with very little in the way of a hand.
For me on this river the only holdings you are beating that would have called you on 2 streets are a wrap (2 4 6 ) 2p (9T or 93) or an overplayed overpair QQ or KK.You are losing to a bare 5 at this stage let alone houses and flushes.Unless the villain is a complete maniac(which has not been shown by the betting in this hand) i just can not see anyway of calling here.
Also unless you know that you can bet your opponent off hands and/or draws then i do not like your line throughout this hand at all. The raise preflop is standard as is the call to the 3-bet but the flop is just about as bad as it can be for your hand because it has missed it totally and given you nothing in the way of draws.The turn card is again bad for you as it opens up more possibilities that you dont have. So as i said your bets on the flop and turn are little more than bluffs
That is such a strange bet from the villain because the river completes the majority of hands you should be betting strong on the flop and turn (as you have, although you don't have one of these hands). Sets bet both streets, NFD (or in heads up K or Q Flush draws may be able to bet but obv this is more risky) and straight draw run downs that include 5's which trip or house up on the end. There's just so much that completes on the end the villain's line, taken in a vacuum, really confuses me.
From your notes on the player I have a sneaky feeling they have something like JJ35 or some other junky Omaha hand that's housed up on the end. Your hand ends up being a very weak bluff catcher, and if someone is shoving on the bluff on these rivers all you have to do is fold here and pick them off later on in the session when they do it again.
From my limited experience at PLO, when i make light calls like this im nearly always losing to flush/house. So a fold is best.
Talon and Tommy sum it up perfectly imo.
To me, this sums up one of the best parts about Omaha, players betting tendencies and the use of bet sizing to mess with peoples minds.
Lets break it down street by street. Villain 3bets my open, which means he can have almost any 4 cards (worst hand I have seen him 3bet is 8824r). I flat call, because he is folding alot of worse hands preflop to a 4bet, and also it gives me the tiny range of AAxx, which I would rather villain didn't know! Also, my hand is unsuited and will not flop well in a 4bet pot, meaning that when I get it in vs pairs+fd's, pairs+sd or a better hand, my equity is never good. We are also fairly deep, meaning a 4bet is getting less than 20% of his stack in pre making my hand susceptible to bluffs as well.
Flop is flushing and wrapping and he checks. Villain would bet a set or two pair here 110% of the time on such a drawy board, and would definitely bet some of his good wrap+fd combo hands. If villain bets flop, I probably fold my hand given that its tough to improve.
When he checks, my hand is a clear valuebet, given I have the toppest of pairs possible. Talon, I am surprised you say I am effectively bluffing. Just because it is easy for my hand to become second best does not mean I should not bet for value when ahead? When he check calls after not cbetting, im sure his range is straight draws only.
Turn is simple bet/fold, so when he c/c im still fairly certain I have the best hand, and will check back almost any river expecting to win (apart from an Ace, which I would bet).
River brings the flush, and pairs the board. Villain leads for pot. This is very important; I have the Ace of clubs.
When you bet for value, you want to get called by worse, correct? Villain pots the 5c. Villain cannot have a weak flush, because he cannot expect me to call with worse. Villain cannot have the nut flush. If villain would not value bet a non-nut flush, then villain also will not bet a bare 5 for pot. Villain cannot have any boats made from sets, and would have bet 35xx and 95xx on the flop after threebetting. Thusly, there are literally NO value hands in villains range that he would bet pot with.
Imagine this though, villain leads for £71 on the river (less than 1/3 pot). It is impossible for me to call this bet and expect to be ahead, because surely he is expecting a call? (however, given I have Ac and I dont think villain has a boat, I would shove over this sort of river bet and expect him to fold flushes/5's)
So there we go, I deduced that villain could not have any hands which could pot the river for value and expect me to call with worse.
Villain had K673r with one suit (not clubs or spades) for bottom pair.
i said all this in 16 words.... nice hand and nice explanation btw
My only problem with the thinking is we are assuming that while the villain as described is a very loose/borderline crazy PLO player we are assuming he's suddenly going to play textbook on the river. He's played it awful through the streets when he's behind, there's no reason why he can't play it awful on the river after going ahead.
But I concede you clearly know the player in question very well and have got his betting patterns down pat. If I was you I wouldn't play anyone else if possible (although I don't know who the guy is off hand). You're in the guys head, the line didn't make sense and you made a good call. Well played.
I'm not a massive fan of the 4bet here pre unless I know the villain will 5bet. Did you 4bet him at all and what was his line if you did?
Firstly given that we have an opponent who is calling big bets with bottom pair and a gutshot this goes against your reading of the A clubs being a blocker card because anyone who is calling down this light is very liable to overvalue a flush no matter how weak it is.
Secondly as to my comment about your lead out with AA being effectively a bluff. We have an opponent who is calling with a very bad hand and yet on the trun they have 15 outs to go ahead of you. Admittedly they should never have gone this deep in the hand but at that point they had a good chance of winning whereas you had absolutely no idea of what they were holding.
Whilst playing omaha i have cracked AA and seen AA cracked so many times. And most of the time the player with AA loses a big pot because they are unable to lay it down no matter what. Yes you won this hand and against this player it was probably the right call to make but overall playing AA with no other redraws in this way is the perfect way to win small or lose big.
As a caveat to all my comments about this hand. They are based upon basic solid omaha play and not on reads against any particular opponent.
Yes i do have HU experience. And as far as the stakes are concerned they are of no relevance.As long as you are rolled correctly then you can make correct decisions.Correct decisions are always right irrespective of the stakes.