could/ should I have folded?

Smudgesmit

Played tight for 30 hands, played 2 hands in that time and one of those the villian here sucked out a gut shot strt.

once he re-raises all in I felt he's had the 6 but called due to previous with him.

firstly:  Should I be raising pre flop with a rag ace?
second: did I bet enough on flop
third: can I/ should I fold to his re-raise?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
cooke07774	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£2.98
Smudgesmit	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£3.96
	Your hole cards	A 7
Co4cH	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£0.82
danup	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£1.00
XXX	Call		£0.04	£0.18	£1.97
BRIANV	Call		£0.04	£0.22	£0.84
cooke07774	Fold
Smudgesmit	Check
Flop
		7 6 A
Smudgesmit	Bet		£0.22	£0.44	£3.74
Co4cH	Fold
danup	Fold
XXX	Call		£0.22	£0.66	£1.75
BRIANV	Fold
Turn
		6
Smudgesmit	Bet		£0.66	£1.32	£3.08
XXX	All-in		£1.75	£3.07	£0.00
Smudgesmit	Call		£1.09	£4.16	£1.99
Smudgesmit	Show	A 7
XXX	Show	6 7
River
		8
XXX	Win	Full House, 6s and 7s	£3.84

LOL_RAISE

he only has a 50bb stack i think its  fine if he had 100bbs i think it is alot closer

Smudgesmit

In Response to Re: could/ should I have folded?:

he only has a 50bb stack i think its  fine if he had 100bbs i think it is alot closer
Posted by LOL_RAISE

Thanks that was part of my call reasoning.
What about a rag ace from blinds?  Should I be raising with these?  At this level I get at least 2 calls to a pre flop raise so is there value in it with rags?

LOL_RAISE

id be raising AT+,77+,KT+ preflop i think

LMLS2

It's played fine on all streets. Definitely don't raise A7 pre from the blinds when there's 4 limpers. You bet pot on flop of course you bet enough. Don't think you can fold to his turn shove given stack sizes, it's not much more to call and people do this with worse aces a lot at these limits cause they have top pair and not much money left.

Mohican

In Response to Re: could/ should I have folded?:

It's played fine on all streets. Definitely don't raise A7 pre from the blinds when there's 4 limpers. You bet pot on flop of course you bet enough. Don't think you can fold to his turn shove given stack sizes, it's not much more to call and people do this with worse aces a lot at these limits cause they have top pair and not much money left.
Posted by LMLS2

Going to disagree with you here. This is a great spot to raise. No one has shown any strength, so I make this 20/30p and see what happens. Charge them limpers tax. You say it's a rag A, but it's calling raises with rag aces that gets people into trouble.Raising with rag aces is ok
To answer your questions:
1) Raising in this spot pre flop with  A7 is absolutely the right spot to be raising
2) As played a pot size bet is good. If you had open shoved he would've insta called.
3) If your gut reaction is that he has a 6, then fold. You're losing to a set and a paired board can mean a full house. Sometimes the maths says you have to call but I've found that gut reaction can save you a lot of money. It's never a bluff in this spot(and level) as he has very little fold equity and knows you'll probably call with the money invested.

LMLS2

I'd agree if it was 1 limper, raise it up all day, but with 4 limpers it's very often going to be a case of you raising to 20p, you get 4 callers, then you miss the flop and have to check fold, effectively throwing away 16p more than necessary. If you could raise to 20p and get 2 or 3 of them to fold then that would be fine also but it's 2p/4p, they aren't going to limp fold too often imo.

Mohican

So instead of thinning the field and having the betting lead, you want to play oop in a multiway pot?

LMLS2

So you want to play a multiway pot oop against the same number of opponents except with 5 times more money in pre?

LOL_RAISE

getting my popcorn asap

Mohican

A 30p raise is going to thin the field and if players want to limp call with weak hands, great. There is not going to be 4 callers to that raise. You can't be scared of raising just because 4 weak players limp in.Just the way I play and it works for me, I not going to be that passive but each to there own.Aggression wins. Limp calling players very rarely hit big and you'll make money long term.

LMLS2

I'm certainly not a passive player my preflop stats in 6max holdem over several hundred thousand hands is like 30vpip 27pfr and I have a lifetime winrate in excess of 8bb/100 so I find that the way I play "works for me" too. You originally said 20-30p, 20p is def not gonna thin the field at 2p/4p, the first guy will call then everyone else sees better odds and all call too, then you really are spewing money as you play 5 way oop with a mediocre holding, 30p might get some of them to fold but I'd still rather check and see a free one than raising 7.5bb and playing 3 way out of position with a weak holding, in what I see as, an almost best case scenario as I think it'd be a rare case where they all fold. And yes, having people call with weak holdings is good for you in general, for instance if 1 person calls with garbage you're showing huge profit as they miss too often to do anything about a frequent cbetting strategy, or they hit a mediocre piece of it and will frequently be forced to either make very thin calldowns with small pieces of the board or fold to later aggression, but if you're getting called by FOUR weak holdings that's completely different, it's not like your hand is especially good itself either and you're oop in a bloated pot against people who aren't going to fold so you can't rely on pure fold equity, nor can you rely on your hand making big enough hands to overcome your lack of fold equity because A7s makes bad 1 pair hands and you rarely make anything better than that, and if that's what you're hoping for then well, 32o makes 2 pair or trips as often as A7s but obviously that hand wouldn't be good enough to raise preflop here profitably.

N1CK

In Response to Re: could/ should I have folded?:

I'm certainly not a passive player my preflop stats in 6max holdem over several hundred thousand hands is like 30vpip 27pfr and I have a lifetime winrate in excess of 8bb/100 so I find that the way I play "works for me" too. You originally said 20-30p, 20p is def not gonna thin the field at 2p/4p, the first guy will call then everyone else sees better odds and all call too, then you really are spewing money as you play 5 way oop with a mediocre holding, 30p might get some of them to fold but I'd still rather check and see a free one than raising 7.5bb and playing 3 way out of position with a weak holding, in what I see as, an almost best case scenario as I think it'd be a rare case where they all fold. And yes, having people call with weak holdings is good for you in general, for instance if 1 person calls with garbage you're showing huge profit as they miss too often to do anything about a frequent cbetting strategy, or they hit a mediocre piece of it and will frequently be forced to either make very thin calldowns with small pieces of the board or fold to later aggression, but if you're getting called by FOUR weak holdings that's completely different, it's not like your hand is especially good itself either and you're oop in a bloated pot against people who aren't going to fold so you can't rely on pure fold equity, nor can you rely on your hand making big enough hands to overcome your lack of fold equity because A7s makes bad 1 pair hands and you rarely make anything better than that, and if that's what you're hoping for then well, 32o makes 2 pair or trips as often as A7s but obviously that hand wouldn't be good enough to raise preflop here profitably.
Posted by LMLS2

i bet you play 95 - 4 really

LMLS2

lol, based on what?
I can post stats if you want.

LMLS2

Dunno what you're trying to achieve by throwing random insults or arguing with me anyway really but here are some old PokerTracker2 stats from a 4 month period in the Summer of 08:
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/4155/93047026.jpg

That's 7.79BB/100 or 15.58bb/100 over 100k hands at limits ranging from 50c/$1 (few limits missing from the bottom of the screenshot) to $50/$100 on Prima, Crypto and Partypoker (and a couple k hands on Betfair and possibly somewhere else too) where I was playing 29/26 (And I'm a bit looser than that nowadays). I also have over a million hands on Stars+FTP with more profits than this and a winrate of 4BB/100 over that sample (8bb/100).

It's ok though N1CK, clearly you know better with your one liners and 0 substance. Even if I disagree with Mohican at least he tries to offer some substance in his replies, you on the other hand offer nothing.

Mohican

I think N1CK reply is tongue in cheek
As for the thread, we're going to have to agree to disagree.

LMLS2

Yea prob would've taken it that way too if it were not for him saying something in another thread. Anyway, don't really wanna derail threads :<

Dudeskin8

For me you played this hand to perfection, you have a suited ace so want to see a cheap flop multiway and hit a big draw rigth ? That's what you got, of course you didn't hit the big draw but top 2 pair at this level is the nuts and I would NEVER be folding. You made a great pot bet giving them no value to call but they still did which is great for you, they hit their miracal card but had to pay big for it so you win long term.

In terms of raising preflop from BB with a rag ace after limpers, that would probably be one of the worst offences you can commit at this level, so continue to play it like you did here.

pryce6

check pre. that is all.

N1CK

In Response to Re: could/ should I have folded?:

Yea prob would've taken it that way too if it were not for him saying something in another thread. Anyway, don't really wanna derail threads :<
Posted by LMLS2

 im not the one who feels he has to prove himself.........