Should I lay This Down?

RedHouse

Ok just sat down at the table so no reads on opponents. Should I be folding this?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
RedHouse	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£3.94
spanner101	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£2.07
	Your hole cards	A 6
AAA	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£3.74
Draco69	Fold
BBB	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£4.11
RedHouse	Call		£0.02	£0.16	£3.92
spanner101	Check
Flop
		6 J Q
RedHouse	Check
spanner101	Check
AAA	Bet		£0.04	£0.20	£3.70
BBB	Call		£0.04	£0.24	£4.07
RedHouse	Call		£0.04	£0.28	£3.88
spanner101	Fold
Turn
		A
RedHouse	Check
AAA	Bet		£0.16	£0.44	£3.54
BBB	Raise		£0.76	£1.20	£3.31

Whats my move?

Dudeskin8

Preflop is ok as long as you know your looking for spades on the flop. On flop even tho u have hit a pair best to fold at this stage. On turn with the 2 pair I'd defo be stacking off against 1 opponant at this level but with two and after that quite big raise it looks like they have something strong maybe a better 2 pair. For me it's either shove or fold and I'd be closer to a fold here although again at this level they could both have K high...

RedHouse

Cheers Dudeskin

I called the flop looking for two pair or trips, I was never thinking my pair was good just given a good price I thought.

Needless to say I shoved and lost, they both had me beat

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Should I lay This Down?:

Cheers Dudeskin I called the flop looking for two pair or trips, I was never thinking my pair was good just given a good price I thought. Needless to say I shoved and lost, they both had me beat
Posted by RedHouse

I know what you mean about the price and many players at this level love to minbet and you think go on then it's only 4p, but really you've got to have some discipline as over time you'll be losing money calling in these spots.

N1CK

i don't think its that bad at this level, i would get it in on the turn too but i wouldn't be that happy about it, its just one of those hands were you get yourself into trouble the way it was played. (spew monkey FTW)

LMLS2

I'd check/fold the flop. It's good you understand that you're never good here but even though it's only 4p into 24p by the time it gets to you, you only have 5 outs and they're not clean outs. If you hit an ace you could still be up against KT or AJ etc. Hitting a 6 is pretty much the only thing you're happy about seeing given that it's a 4 way pot and there are 2 people continuing on the flop, well not that you're not happy about seeing an ace but you have to be cautious about it given the action. Ranges are stronger the more people go to the flop and it's best to avoid these situations, it's a marginal spot at best and you can find much better situations against players at 2p/4p who are basically giving it away most of the time. On the turn even though you improve to 2 pair your hand still isn't that strong, I mean look at the action, there's a bet and two calls on the flop and then a bet and a raise on the turn, I don't think anybody is going nuts like that with QJ which is the next worse hand to yours, and nobody is ever bluffing in this spot so you basically beat nothing. I'd fold flop, I'd fold turn. 2 pair is a good hand obviously but it's not the nuts in every situation, and given the number of players to the flop and the action that went down, unless they're both the type that is just ramming and jamming everything without a care in the world for what their hands are then you're definitely spewing money continuing on either the flop or turn.

5toneFace

Defo call flop for 4p, turn a spade, 6 or ace ftw!!

LOL_RAISE

In Response to Re: Should I lay This Down?:

I'd check/fold the flop. It's good you understand that you're never good here but even though it's only 4p into 24p by the time it gets to you, you only have 5 outs and they're not clean outs. If you hit an ace you could still be up against KT or AJ etc. Hitting a 6 is pretty much the only thing you're happy about seeing given that it's a 4 way pot and there are 2 people continuing on the flop, well not that you're not happy about seeing an ace but you have to be cautious about it given the action. Ranges are stronger the more people go to the flop and it's best to avoid these situations, it's a marginal spot at best and you can find much better situations against players at 2p/4p who are basically giving it away most of the time. On the turn even though you improve to 2 pair your hand still isn't that strong, I mean look at the action, there's a bet and two calls on the flop and then a bet and a raise on the turn, I don't think anybody is going nuts like that with QJ which is the next worse hand to yours, and nobody is ever bluffing in this spot so you basically beat nothing. I'd fold flop, I'd fold turn. 2 pair is a good hand obviously but it's not the nuts in every situation, and given the number of players to the flop and the action that went down, unless they're both the type that is just ramming and jamming everything without a care in the world for what their hands are then you're definitely spewing money continuing on either the flop or turn.
Posted by LMLS2

meh i call flop because we also have bdfd

LMLS2

I don't think there's much between call or fold on the flop, afterall it's just 1big blind to call so even if it's -EV it's not costing you much over the long term providing you don't mess up later on. You can potentially make a decent bit of money on later streets if you do hit, particularly a 6. I dunno maybe it's a slightly +EV flop call I don't think you're making much on it though and there are definitely better spots, and I think the worse you are at playing later streets the more inclined you should be to fold the flop, for instance in this spot the OP got all his stack in on this turn bad and it ended up costing him a lot more than the 4p he put in on the flop. I probably would call the flop myself tbh but wouldn't feel all that great about it and I definitely wouldn't have spewed off my entire stack on this turn like OP did, so I think the best advice for HIM personally is to just fold the flop.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Should I lay This Down?:

I don't think there's much between call or fold on the flop, afterall it's just 1big blind to call so even if it's -EV it's not costing you much over the long term providing you don't mess up later on. You can potentially make a decent bit of money on later streets if you do hit, particularly a 6. I dunno maybe it's a slightly +EV flop call I don't think you're making much on it though and there are definitely better spots, and I think the worse you are at playing later streets the more inclined you should be to fold the flop, for instance in this spot the OP got all his stack in on this turn bad and it ended up costing him a lot more than the 4p he put in on the flop. I probably would call the flop myself tbh but wouldn't feel all that great about it and I definitely wouldn't have spewed off my entire stack on this turn like OP did, so I think the best advice for HIM personally is to just fold the flop.
Posted by LMLS2

then he should of just folded pre then...

LMLS2

Maybe HE SHOULD if he ends up making mistakes like this with any regularity, it's certainly hard to profit when you have to overcome huge mistakes like this, but nobody actually does fold here pre so I think it's kinda ludicrous to suggest it.

RedHouse

Thanks for the comments guys.

The idea that if I can't trust myself to fold given the information provided on the turn then I should avoid the situation makes sense.

Obviously longer term the hope would be I learn to make the laydown, which I can't do unless I get myself into these situations. I'm going to view the hand as a costly lesson rather than a costly mistake, cus it makes me feel better

FWIW player A had slow played pocket aces. However justice was served as player B had K10.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Should I lay This Down?:

Maybe HE SHOULD if he ends up making mistakes like this with any regularity, it's certainly hard to profit when you have to overcome huge mistakes like this, but nobody actually does fold here pre so I think it's kinda ludicrous to suggest it.
Posted by LMLS2

i totally agree its just as ludicrous as folding the flop

LMLS2

Perhaps you're just trying to defend him because you say that you would've got it in on the turn too. That just tells me that you're awful at poker and aren't worth arguing with, but anyway. You've given 0 reason why it's ludicrous to fold the flop, I can only assume that your argument would be that it's only 4p and he's getting good odds, but that's not the end of the hand and he if he improves as he did here and gets into this exact situation, he's going to be behind WAY more often than he's ahead, are you even thinking about the way the hand played out and what hands they can be doing this with or are you thinking "I HAZ 2PURRZ" ? Seems very clear to me it's the latter and hence the complete lack of substance in any of your posts. Anyway, the flop call is fine if he's capable of reading hands and making correct folds when it gets heated like this, but if he isn't capable then I believe a call is the best advice for him personally because it'll save him a lot of money in spots like this, whereas when he hits he isn't likely to make much money anyway so this WILL be costing him far more than the 4p that it was on the flop.

RedHouse

Is player BBB never just coming over the top of AAA raise with just an ace in this situation.

I was thinking player AAA had a weak queen or jack with the min raise on the flop, and thought player BBB was coming over the top with just an ace having hit the turn.

How much can you read into the large raise on the turn when players at this level only seem to min reraise or reraise pot using the quick button, which is what this raise is?

LMLS2

Well there's a few reasons that it's very unlikely that he'd have just an ace. Firstly, BBB doesn't just have AAA to worry about, he also has you to worry about since you also called on the flop. Secondly on this kind of board texture (Having QJ and A up there) there's a lot of potential for big hands as it's coordinated and connects with the hands people like to play a lot (Hands that are coordinated), BBB is unlikely to think so highly of a random Ax when there are so many combinations of hands better than a naked Ace. Thirdly, he raised full pot which hints towards him just wanting to get as much money into the pot as possible, which he wouldn't really want to do with Ax, he'd be more interested in controlling the pot size. And finally, it's a limped pot. People are less likely to go crazy in limped pots for a couple of reasons, there's not that much money in there to start with, and thus not much to win, and thus not much reason to go crazy. It also increases the stack to pot ratio, for instance, if you're playing a reraised pot you'll have about 10% + of your stack in preflop, in which case, pretty much any top pair+ is generally good enough to play for stacks, but in a limped pot you only have like 1% of your stack in preflop, and you need a much bigger hand to feel happy about getting all your money in. All of these reasons are reason enough themselves for him to not want to play a worse hand that strong, but all of them together is overwhelming. He would have to either be every kind of bad or be INCREDIBLY creative (in which case he would be bluffing, and people don't do that with top pair very often particularly not in limped pots when there are so many possible made hands and facing 2 players) to do this with a worse hand than what you have. There are a lot of bad players at these limits but usually they're the type of bad that just calls too much. He isn't bluffing, he isn't doing this with a worse made hand on the turn, thus easy fold.

RedHouse

Ok so I need to be more aware of the situation my opponent is making that play in, not just the situation i'm facing. Fair enough.

Thanks for the help.

YOUNG_GUN

I think you played this fine, cheap enough so call flop hope to hit. at this level im stacking of two pair there especially with no reads ul sir