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JJ looks suspect your views

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  • waynecwaynec
    edited January 2011
    20nl XXX a reg at this level and a solid player, TAG, never seen him raise light and sure he had a hand.
    The all in was on tilt after a river beat and was abusing the other player in the chat box, so an easy call as far as he is concerned.
    Its XXX that is my worry here as said quite solid but can be knocked off pots with a good bet.
    IMO I have a few options:

    4 bet with the view to isolating the tilt player, now if XXX comes over the top I am committed to the pot and could be racing or well dominated.

    Flat call so if he does shove I can fold, but any A,K,Q on the flop would cause me a problem plus he has position on me.

    Fold as I have only 1 BB invested with only JJ

    What would you do in this position and your reasons why?
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    waynecure Big blind  £0.20 £0.20 £29.55
      Your hole cards
    • J
    • J
    		     
    wiljam Fold     
    XXX Raise  £0.80 £1.00 £19.20
    paulrowy11 Fold     
    on tilt All-in  £5.97 £6.97 £0.00
    waynecure ???    
    weaktight    
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  • waynecwaynec
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views:
    Call
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    Am I calling to fold here if I dont see a flop I like, why the call?
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited January 2011
    Why would you call to fold?? lolz

    personally if you have a read that your opponent is tight i would call to re-assess. if call behind then you have to re-assess based on range of hands you put them on & the board.

    if you put the regular on AK similar then depends whether your happy to be getting it in slight fave, if stronger eg. Queens etc which is impossible based on 1 opening raise then you would have to fold
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  • N1CKN1CK
    edited January 2011
    "Fold as I have only 1 BB invested with only JJ"  i love this you make out that you have the pox or sumit lol;;i

    would just jam here to isolate, not sure if its optimal but its easier all round
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  • WilhelmWilhelm
    edited January 2011
    I'd call but I'm not folding if he reshoves.  I hate my life if he calls and I see a couple of overcards, but I think he's all in or folding.
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  • N1CKN1CK
    edited January 2011
    yeah i think calling is better it gives xxx the chance to make a mistake, obviously if he shoves its a call, i think xxx will shove with AK
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  • pryce6pryce6
    edited January 2011
    "I'd call but I'm not folding if he shoves."

    Well then we may as well ship it in - it's like yayayayayay let's try and go three-way to a flop with J-J...
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  • N1CKN1CK
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views:
    "I'd call but I'm not folding if he shoves." Well then we may as well ship it in - it's like yayayayayay let's try and go three-way to a flop with J-J...
    Posted by pryce6
    what do you think the worst hand xxx would  call with if we flat the shove? and also the worst hand xxx would shove with?
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  • waynecwaynec
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views:
    "I'd call but I'm not folding if he shoves." Well then we may as well ship it in - it's like yayayayayay let's try and go three-way to a flop with J-J...
    Posted by pryce6
    OK so why call if we dont plan to fold to a shove, we might as well 4 bet or jam put the ball in his court?
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  • waynecwaynec
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views:
    "Fold as I have only 1 BB invested with only JJ"  i love this you make out that you have the pox or sumit lol;;i would just jam here to isolate, not sure if its optimal but its easier all round
    Posted by N1CK
    Funny u should mention the pox Nick, met this old sla..... na thats another for The Shed :)

    Agree! it has to be fold or jam
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views:
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views : OK so why call if we dont plan to fold to a shove, we might as well 4 bet or jam put the ball in his court?
    Posted by waynecure

    Because we want him to come in with hands which otherwise he may have folded, this is all if's and buts .... but imagine they are sitting there with AQ/AJ etc and they call to see if they hit, they miss a good % of time to make this a good move. also it allows for underpairs to come in aswell adding extra value.

    I half dont mind the isolating but feel the regular is only calling the shove with aces/kings therefore your missing out on some value
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited January 2011

    High variance spots r killer for 1/2 tablers.

    I know loads of people at 30nl who would snap fold Jacks and AK in this spot and not even think twice about it.

    Just fold and forget about the hand. (or call, and fold to a shove from xxx probably wud be my move)
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  • pryce6pryce6
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views:
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views : what do you think the worst hand xxx would  call with if we flat the shove? and also the worst hand xxx would shove with?
    Posted by N1CK
    what I am saying is, if he is flatting the shortys shove - but not folding to a shove from the other guy, why wouldn't you just ship it in to isolate? 
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  • tapewormtapeworm
    edited January 2011
    I dont understand why we are not shoving here? what are we gonna do. flat call and bet out/ shove when we have over pair and then worry about turn/river? or flat call and then fold when there are over pairs on board? - the guy is tight agressive you said - so shove - shove surely????

    If he has higher or outdraws so be it - but the worse thing in my mind is to flat call, see an A,K or Q on flop and check fold or Cbet and get reraised - only to see he has worse.

    Im obviously wrong here as everyone else is saying flat call, but can we explain why? I know the raise from early position indicates a real premium from a TAG at this level - but couldnt this be pocket pair, AJ+ if he also knows tilty is tilting and hoping for a random shove?
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  • waynecwaynec
    edited January 2011

    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views:

    I dont understand why we are not shoving here? what are we gonna do. flat call and bet out/ shove when we have over pair and then worry about turn/river? or flat call and then fold when there are over pairs on board? - the guy is tight agressive you said - so shove - shove surely???? If he has higher or outdraws so be it - but the worse thing in my mind is to flat call, see an A,K or Q on flop and check fold or Cbet and get reraised - only to see he has worse. Im obviously wrong here as everyone else is saying flat call, but can we explain why? I know the raise from early position indicates a real premium from a TAG at this level - but couldnt this be pocket pair, AJ+ if he also knows tilty is tilting and hoping for a random shove?
    Posted by tapeworm
    You hit the nail on the head and agree with u 100%, IMO a flat call was not on. I then had to decide fold or reraise and by how much, I opted to push all in with XXX instantly folding. Mr Tilt showed AQ better than I put him on but went into the race ahead so you cant ask more. My JJ held and won the pot but weather this was the correct move I am still not sure, the flat call I think is very wrong, maybe the fold was the best option and I was lucky this time... hence my post for your views.

    Thanks for your imput and opinions

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  • N1CKN1CK
    edited January 2011
    if we shove he snap calls with AA KK QQ AK, If we flat it gives him the option to call or shove with worse hands than i mentioned, im not saying shoving jj is bad but this is another option, if hes good its unlikely he would do anything stupid but atleast it gives the opportunity to make a mistake
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  • tapewormtapeworm
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views:
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views : You hit the nail on the head and agree with u 100%, IMO a flat call was not on. I then had to decide fold or reraise and by how much, I opted to push all in with XXX instantly folding. Mr Tilt showed AQ better than I put him on but went into the race ahead so you cant ask more. My JJ held and won the pot but weather this was the correct move I am still not sure, the flat call I think is very wrong, maybe the fold was the best option and I was lucky this time... hence my post for your views. Thanks for your imput and opinions
    Posted by waynecure
    You may be right Wayne in saying it is -EV long run but I cant see why. There are 3 hands that beat us + a few coin flips. You think tilty is tilt shoving- in my minds he isnt worth thinking about because we are sure we are ahead of him.

    Ok so we flat call and TAG also calls - we are now 3 handed - WTF are we gonna do with overcards on the board.

    Im never folding in this spot. Never ever in a million years in a spot where i am sure someone is tilt shoving and with a TAG standard raise. Save the headache on the flop and shove. 

    So Dohhhh and co, im sure you are right in saying to flat call is correct - but why? This hand got me very interested because normally I see why you guys are saying what to do but in this case i can only see shove. Plzzzz explain the long term benefit!!!
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  • tapewormtapeworm
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views:
    if we shove he snap calls with AA KK QQ AK, If we flat it gives him the option to call or shove with worse hands than i mentioned, im not saying shoving jj is bad but this is another option, if hes good its unlikely he would do anything stupid but atleast it gives the opportunity to make a mistake
    Posted by N1CK
    but if we flat call and so does he, we are now have one extra person to care about - he TAG and raised early so any over cards and we should be seriously considering laying our hand down. Thats 25% of our chip stack gone - we would be better off folding.

    Lets saay we do flat call - he calls, we have the over pair, Bet out and he shoves - what we doing now? if we fold we are losing most of our stack to a possible lower pair or calling and possibly losing to a higher,

    Im sorry i can only see shove pre.
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  • waynecwaynec
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views:
    if we shove he snap calls with AA KK QQ AK, If we flat it gives him the option to call or shove with worse hands than i mentioned, im not saying shoving jj is bad but this is another option, if hes good its unlikely he would do anything stupid but atleast it gives the opportunity to make a mistake
    Posted by N1CK
    I dont mind AK if I shove my chances are the same as AQ, what I did not want to face was both of these hands combined as 3 overs to beat me but only 2 As left but 3 Qs/Ks.... if I flat and reg had AA/KK and the flop came out say (8c 5d 3c, do I check if so he will sure bet what do I do then? If I bet say half pot on this flop and he comes back at me with 99/TT flush/str8 draw AA/KK/QQ chances are with the pot size the all lot is going in, so IMO the flat is an exercise in putting yourself in a hole. It has to be fold or shove ...... I do think looking back over this hand that the shove was fine but maybe a better player would have laid the hand down pre.
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  • N1CKN1CK
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views:
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views : but if we flat call and so does he, we are now have one extra person to care about - he TAG and raised early so any over cards and we should be seriously considering laying our hand down. Thats 25% of our chip stack gone - we would be better off folding. Lets saay we do flat call - he calls, we have the over pair, Bet out and he shoves - what we doing now? if we fold we are losing most of our stack to a possible lower pair or calling and possibly losing to a higher, Im sorry i can only see shove pre.
    Posted by tapeworm
    if we flat  hes not calling with Q K A rag, if we have overpair on flop and bet and he shoves we call because if he has AA KK QQ he would call if we shove pre so it dosent really matter, so what im saying is the only big cards hes calling our flat with will be the same he would call our shove with, he prolly wont bluff post flop as it would be a dry side pot
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  • WilhelmWilhelm
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views:
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views : if we flat  hes not calling with Q K A rag, if we have overpair on flop and bet and he shoves we call because if he has AA KK QQ he would call if we shove pre so it dosent really matter, so what im saying is the only big cards hes calling our flat with will be the same he would call our shove with, he prolly wont bluff post flop as it would be a dry side pot
    Posted by N1CK
    +1

    Wayne you really should listen to this.  So often people ask for advice and ignore the advice they are given.  What is worse, they then post advice to lesser experienced players and get them into bad habits.  In the heat of the moment I might have shoved the JJ, but when you look at the hand away from the table a flat call here is definately worth considering.
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  • waynecwaynec
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views:
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views : +1 Wayne you really should listen to this.  So often people ask for advice and ignore the advice they are given.  What is worse, they then post advice to lesser experienced players and get them into bad habits.  In the heat of the moment I might have shoved the JJ, but when you look at the hand away from the table a flat call here is definately worth considering.
    Posted by Wilhelm
    Wilhelm if you read back I say I felt the shove was a wrong play (hence my post for advise) and a better player would have laid it down, I have taken on board the comments and advise given to me which varies from shove, call and fold. From these people the ones I respect as being good players seem to feel the fold is correct and from the arguments offered IMO feel they are correct, I won the pot this time but should I find myself in this spot again I will strongly favour fold pre. You seem to favour the call, I do not know anything about your poker back ground which maybe a wealth of experience in which case we have two camps here both with experienced players saying call with the other fold.... whom do I listen too? AS JJ says early in this thread players playing at 30nl and above would fold this without blinking, we have to listen to this advise too dont you think?

    Plus Nick is replying to a post by tapeworm whom presented his arguement so feel before saying I am not listening you should read whom has posted what!
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  • N1CKN1CK
    edited January 2011
    i think folding the 4th best starting hand in unlimited texas holdem in this situation is by far the worse play of the 3
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  • waynecwaynec
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views:
    i think folding the 4th best starting hand in unlimited texas holdem in this situation is by far the worse play of the 3
    Posted by N1CK
    Have a look at this NICK http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYpmQm3M1KE

    Now if you raise http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8K30RExWDBM
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  • N1CKN1CK
    edited January 2011
    not even an exposed mtt nit like me would fold kings there lol
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  • waynecwaynec
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views:
    not even an exposed mtt nit like me would fold kings there lol
    Posted by N1CK
    Agree with that.... not that ur a nit :) but about the fold
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  • N1CKN1CK
    edited January 2011
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views:
    In Response to Re: JJ looks suspect your views : Agree with that.... not that ur a nit :) but about the fold
    Posted by waynecure
    well that was totally different circumstances, you cant compare the two hands
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited January 2011
    lol! I love those links Wayne hahahaha :D

    what happened in the hand?

    I said I would call, with the intention of folding if the tight regular player shoves over the top.

    I believe I save 75 big blinds alot of the time here, and win 25 big blinds from the shortstack alot of the time too.

    If the tight player shoves, he almost always has QQ,KK or AA.

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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG
    edited January 2011

    If im playing well and like a ooober nit, i fold.

    If im playing like a semi scared nitbag, i flat call and hope i can check it down and/or avoid overcards.

    If im feel like gambling, im all in.

    All three options perfectly acceptable innit.

    Dohhhhh, read up, he reshoved to isolate and XXX folded. tilt man showed AQ, and Wayne's hand held.

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  • ybyb
    edited January 2011
    Greg I don't think anyone who folds here is playing well tbf.

    Shoving pre can't be bad, and it stops you from making any mistakes. With specific reads flat calling can be more +EV sometimes.
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