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T.M.I
Too much information...? For those unfamiliar with the teen vernacular.
I watch a lot of Sky Poker (have it on almost constantly in the background). I've also watched, and tried to absorb the goings on of the World Class players in watching the Poker Million, watching some of the PCA the other week etc etc.
I'm now a little confused. I quite vividly remember Redmond Lee, saying to Trevor H in the poker clinic, that he would recommend, UTG and in early position, mucking A9, A10, AJ and sometime AQ as they are very hard to play - a statement I agree with when someone re-raises you from in position, you don't know where you stand. However, when watching the "big boys" go at it, they seem to see A8, A9 (not even short-handed) in early position and go for it...? I suppose, this could just be selective hands that are shown.
I appreciate that it's very much case independent. Who you're playing, level of the tourney, which way the wind is blowing...? So perhaps this is a pointless question?
So to fully quantify, what should I/would you do, with A10, UTG, say, level III of the Primo having barely played a hand on a fairly aggro table? Raise 3 x BB, wait for a re-raise and then 4 bet relatively light? Or fold in a heartbeat?
I don't often (as far as I remember) get burnt with AQ (or similar) in the face on a lot of strength, but I do wonder a lot now about how many times I'm being pushed off with 89o?
In general, there is a lot of continuity in the fantastic advice given by Tikay, Trevor, James et al, which looks to set-up the foundation for a solid game, but I do seem to struggle in trying to absorb everything I'm seeing and hearing and applying it as it's often contradictory.
Feels a bit like information overload and it's making me dither whereas I used to have a more clear idea of what I should do.
Dan
I watch a lot of Sky Poker (have it on almost constantly in the background). I've also watched, and tried to absorb the goings on of the World Class players in watching the Poker Million, watching some of the PCA the other week etc etc.
I'm now a little confused. I quite vividly remember Redmond Lee, saying to Trevor H in the poker clinic, that he would recommend, UTG and in early position, mucking A9, A10, AJ and sometime AQ as they are very hard to play - a statement I agree with when someone re-raises you from in position, you don't know where you stand. However, when watching the "big boys" go at it, they seem to see A8, A9 (not even short-handed) in early position and go for it...? I suppose, this could just be selective hands that are shown.
I appreciate that it's very much case independent. Who you're playing, level of the tourney, which way the wind is blowing...? So perhaps this is a pointless question?
So to fully quantify, what should I/would you do, with A10, UTG, say, level III of the Primo having barely played a hand on a fairly aggro table? Raise 3 x BB, wait for a re-raise and then 4 bet relatively light? Or fold in a heartbeat?
I don't often (as far as I remember) get burnt with AQ (or similar) in the face on a lot of strength, but I do wonder a lot now about how many times I'm being pushed off with 89o?
In general, there is a lot of continuity in the fantastic advice given by Tikay, Trevor, James et al, which looks to set-up the foundation for a solid game, but I do seem to struggle in trying to absorb everything I'm seeing and hearing and applying it as it's often contradictory.
Feels a bit like information overload and it's making me dither whereas I used to have a more clear idea of what I should do.
Dan
Comments
This is actually a very good question which has a fairly simple answer: you need to adjust to a variety of things. I'm going to try and list some of the things you need to consider when moving your hand ranges around:
* How is the table giving action? Loose? Tighten up. Tight? Play more hands.
* Is the table playing straight forward? If so, plays like button steals and limping in UTG with a big hand become mroe viable. If it's playing trickier, expect to have to get a litle more creative to earn your money.
* What's your image like? What will our opponents think we're liking to have in THIS hand according to what has gone on before.
* What is their image like? Has our open from UTG been reraised by a nit or a loose player? How does our AQ match up against both of these?
* How about the pot odds/maths involved? A min-raise back to use is almost always worth considering unless it represents a deent % of your stack.
* Stack sizes - can you open for 3x or should you just open shove.
*What has the action been to you so far? You look down at TT and it's gone raise from UTG+1 and Tikay reraises from MP. Easy fold.
There's a ton of stuff that's missing I am sure, but you can see that from this list above the game very rarely offers a completely correct answer.
So to the advice you hear/things you see on TV.
When the likes of Tikay, Orford, Giddens and co. are on screen their advice is generally being pitched at the beginner/improving player. This inevitably means certain considerations are set aside, such as balancing your ranges. This is to help build a solid foundation to build your poker from. Once you understand the basics (so why opening with Q9o from early position is going to lead to an overall loss, for example), now you're much better equipped to add some finesses to the basics.
That brings us to the likes of Redmond. He's an incredibly talented player and what he's been able to do is use a mix of good fundamentals and a feel for the game to experiment and come up with plays that work for him in particular situations. That means your hand ranges become harder to read and the lines you take are more specific to the opponent, stack size and so on. In the case of cash games, he might play 22 very differently against say LJAMESL than he would against Gliterbabe. This is because of the metagame involved.
That leads us to the 'big boys'. The likes of Antonius, Ivey, Dwan, Hansen, Brunson and co have played literally thousands of hands together both online and off. That pool of experience can be recalled to such a great level that, in many ways, the cards themselves become irrelevant. What applies more is 'what's worked in the past in this spot, and how can I adjust enough to make sure my opponent doesn't catch on to what I am doing.' That's why you see these funky plays which look terrible to intermediate players but are perfectly fine to them.
Think of it like this: when we watch the likes of Ivey and Dwan play on an hour-long show, we get to see an edited selection of hands, perhaps a dozen or two. That consitutes a tiny fraction of what they'll play this month. You're reading a sentence in what is a poker novel. If the sentence doesn't make sense it's because it's been taking out of its context.
How should you play AQo UTGvs an unknown in Level 3 of the Primo? I'm not even going to attempt to answer that because we don't know stack sizes, image of players, hands shown down if any, blah blah. You see my point - stay in the moment, think smart and go with whatever information you do have to guide you to what you feel is the best decision. We all get it wrong from time to time anyway, so the fun of the game for me comes from having the responsibility to getting my chips in with the best of it. I can't control anything else, so this is the aim of the game as far as I am concerened. The money follows.
I hope that helps, although I am sure it could stem as many questions as it answers. In my mind, that can only be a good thing.
Good luck at the tables.
Dave
Makes a lot of sense. Has, as predicted, answered many questions, but raised more. I guess what I was also trying to ask, in a rather long handed way was, using a footy metaphor.
865 (Tikay, Ed, Rich, James, Trevor) educate to a decent level and how to become profitable [League 1/2], and the likes of Hanson, Negreanu, Ivey are World Cup/Champions League legendary level, playing metagames as much as the cards.
How can I progress my game to Championship/Premiership level? i.e. a level where I could see myself in a final - SPT, Primo on a regular(ish) basis? Rather than a sporadic final here and there.
I almost certainly need to develop some more "moves" to get to the next level? Is it all about putting the hours in, in terms of actually playing or can you get to the next level through study/reading/listening?
Cheers, Dan
To continue the footie analogy, the answer would be to work on a range of skills - first touch, passing, positioning, tackling, heading, shooting, volleying, lollipopping like a Portugese winger, etc
To begin with I'd advocate learning a good tight-aggressive game to beat the lower levels first. That means things like playing largely by position and more often than not with a solid if not premium starting hand. Binning KJo and A9s from under the gun in a full ring game will the standard. But hand selection is only part of the game. You've got to consider stuff like bet sizing, bluffing frequency, identifying opponent types, stack size considerations, tournament context, cash game dynamics.... all sorts. It's not an easy game, poker
I've been involved in poker for about 7 years now and the time when I improved most as a player was when I was discussing my game with other players. I would go through every session, pull out key hands and post them on forums or talk to friends over a pint about it. It meant I didn't always agree with the views but it did give me some extra ideas. Those ideas add new strings to your poker bow if applied correctly and that should make you tougher to play against. Then you take the ideas to the felt and see if they work for you. Keep working on your game away from the table, bring your A game to it and see what happens. Take notes on your play and see what questions come up from the session.
How about you dig out some of your hands from Sky Poker, post them on The Poker Clinic and then try and tackle some of the individual parts of your game? I for one would be more than happy to give you feedback.
Dan
Good luck and hope to see you at an SPT soon!
Dave