FINAL TABLE MISTAKE MAYBE??

unknown_username

hey people, just wondering what your thoughts are on a tourney i played last night.
it wasnt on this site, but that shouldnt make a difference.
it was a 5K GTD rebuy, $3 entry, 480 players, 3000 starting chips, 1 hour rebuy period til 1st break, 10 seater, you know the stuff.
anyways pretty quiet for the first hour, didnt use a rebuy and entered the break with 14K chips, 60 get paid. a few hands into the second hour i pick up KK in the bb, button has a few hundred less chips than me its folded round to him and he min raises so i go allin he calls, shows AA.......POOOOOOOOOOO im left with 633 chips (rebuy period has ended so cant buy any more)  with 358 players remaning.
right back to the point of this post, i managed to get back in it and made the final table.YES
1st=$1500
10th=$75
im 2nd in chips with 596K chip leader has 1.5 million, blinds are 15K-30K i have the button on the first hand of the final table, get dealt QQ. sb and the bb are both the shortys on the table, chip leader is utg, he min raises to 60K everyone else folds til it gets to me i just push allin he calls with KK and crushes me with a house.
me =£75 (for a $3 stake not to bad) for 8 hours play
im just wondering as he was the chip leader and the most danger to me could i have folded the QQ pre and just stayed away from him and try to move up the pay ladder??
is then any stratagies for playing a final table?
any thoughts would be great.....

dtm75

In Response to FINAL TABLE MISTAKE MAYBE??:

hey people, just wondering what your thoughts are on a tourney i played last night. it wasnt on this site, but that shouldnt make a difference. it was a 5K GTD rebuy, $3 entry, 480 players, 3000 starting chips, 1 hour rebuy period til 1st break, 10 seater, you know the stuff. anyways pretty quiet for the first hour, didnt use a rebuy and entered the break with 14K chips, 60 get paid. a few hands into the second hour i pick up KK in the bb, button has a few hundred less chips than me its folded round to him and he min raises so i go allin he calls, shows AA.......POOOOOOOOOOO im left with 633 chips (rebuy period has ended so cant buy any more)  with 358 players remaning. right back to the point of this post, i managed to get back in it and made the final table.YES 1st=$1500 10th=$75 im 2nd in chips with 596K chip leader has 1.5 million, blinds are 15K-30K i have the button on the first hand of the final table, get dealt QQ. sb and the bb are both the shortys on the table, chip leader is utg, he min raises to 60K everyone else folds til it gets to me i just push allin he calls with KK and crushes me with a house. me =£75 (for a $3 stake not to bad) for 8 hours play im just wondering as he was the chip leader and the most danger to me could i have folded the QQ pre and just stayed away from him and try to move up the pay ladder?? is then any stratagies for playing a final table? any thoughts would be great.....
Posted by BURNShurtz

I posted something similar here on poker clinic earlier in the week.

I think, when you're sat with 20 BB, you've got a few options here other than shoving on the big stack.  By all means ask the question, re-raise to 170k (leaving you 400k+).  Then if he shoves on you, you know you're potentially in big trouble (AA, KK) or racing.  You can then re-assess.

Arguably you could smooth call and see a flop, but then, asking the question on an 8,5,2 flop will pot commit you?

Also depends how he's been playing.  Is a min-raise his normal M.O. or has he been 3x ing it for the last 30mins to get his big stack.

Dan

unknown_username

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE MISTAKE MAYBE??:

In Response to FINAL TABLE MISTAKE MAYBE?? : I posted something similar here on poker clinic earlier in the week. I think, when you're sat with 20 BB, you've got a few options here other than shoving on the big stack.  By all means ask the question, re-raise to 170k (leaving you 400k+).  Then if he shoves on you, you know you're potentially in big trouble (AA, KK) or racing.  You can then re-assess. Arguably you could smooth call and see a flop, but then, asking the question on an 8,5,2 flop will pot commit you? Also depends how he's been playing.  Is a min-raise his normal M.O . or has he been 3x ing it for the last 30mins to get his big stack. Dan
Posted by dtm75

we wernt on the same table at any point until the last one so not sure how he got them

jakally

I think shoving is fine... just a cooler.

Raise calling is fine.... unless he's a complete nit, AK, JJ, and AQs probs in his 4b range.

Raise folding from a 20bb stack is spew.

Unlucky obv. , but well played to get there.

thejudge10

nope we play to win ,not to ladder,im shoving 100% of the time,

GaryQQQ

Cooler. Unlucky, so near yet so far. That's a profitable shove in the long run IMO.

dtm75

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE MISTAKE MAYBE??:

Raise folding from a 20bb stack is spew

Hi Jakally, the point you make above... is this always the case?   

Are there a set number of hands (where QQ is the cut-off i.e the worst hand) where you'd shove after an utg min-raise?  You wouldn't shove AQ, or JJ/10 10 here would you?

Am trying to improve, and this is the kind of stuff I really struggle with.

Dan

rosjim1

just depends if you want the win
id be tempted to reraise then see what happens at final table the big stack is always going to be agro and show they should be. just an unfortunate event i think no wrong or right given the stack sizes
but had u won that hand your in a very good position to win.

In Response to FINAL TABLE MISTAKE MAYBE??:

hey people, just wondering what your thoughts are on a tourney i played last night. it wasnt on this site, but that shouldnt make a difference. it was a 5K GTD rebuy, $3 entry, 480 players, 3000 starting chips, 1 hour rebuy period til 1st break, 10 seater, you know the stuff. anyways pretty quiet for the first hour, didnt use a rebuy and entered the break with 14K chips, 60 get paid. a few hands into the second hour i pick up KK in the bb, button has a few hundred less chips than me its folded round to him and he min raises so i go allin he calls, shows AA.......POOOOOOOOOOO im left with 633 chips (rebuy period has ended so cant buy any more)  with 358 players remaning. right back to the point of this post, i managed to get back in it and made the final table.YES 1st=$1500 10th=$75 im 2nd in chips with 596K chip leader has 1.5 million, blinds are 15K-30K i have the button on the first hand of the final table, get dealt QQ. sb and the bb are both the shortys on the table, chip leader is utg, he min raises to 60K everyone else folds til it gets to me i just push allin he calls with KK and crushes me with a house. me =£75 (for a $3 stake not to bad) for 8 hours play im just wondering as he was the chip leader and the most danger to me could i have folded the QQ pre and just stayed away from him and try to move up the pay ladder?? is then any stratagies for playing a final table? any thoughts would be great.....
Posted by BURNShurtz

BADBOY985

when you get to any final table you HAVE to got for the win as 1st place usaully pays at least 50% more than second. yes QQ is foldable in many situations but not on a final table.
i used to be a serial ladderer but recently have changed my outlook and my br has looked much healthier since.  playing mtts with the amount of time you have to play and the amount of bad beats and cool decks you have to avoid to get to final tables means you have to go for the win 100% when you do get there 

jakally

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE MISTAKE MAYBE??:

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE MISTAKE MAYBE?? : Hi Jakally, the point you make above... is this always the case?    Are there a set number of hands (where QQ is the cut-off i.e the worst hand) where you'd shove after an utg min-raise?  You wouldn't shove AQ, or JJ/10 10 here would you? Am trying to improve, and this is the kind of stuff I really struggle with. Dan
Posted by dtm75

Say you 3 bet to 6BB. There are now 9.5BB in the pot.

If he then jams... effectively another 19BB, it is then 14BB's for you to call to win 28.5BB.

His range would have to be AA/KK only to make it correct to fold.... i.e. he would have to be a super nit.

Sure he will have you crushed sometimes, but this will be balanced by hands you are flipping against (i.e. AK), and hands you have crushed (JJ, TT etc...).

By laying down queens in these spots you will end up with lots of 3rds/4ths/5ths.

By taking the +EV route, you will probs have a few 6ths, but more 1sts / 2nds.

Good luck.

TommyD

Played fine.  No problem with the shove and I might even bet/call.  1st hand of a FT and the massive chip leader is opening a wide range here, even UTG.

If you're playing to win, you shove or bet/call here.

If you're playing to ladder, you fold ATC against him until a few of the short stackers go out.  I hate this route personally but I know a few people see this as the way to go.

Raise/fold is awful in this spot.

scotty77

depends entirely on your financial situation

if the money for 5/6th is a significant amount to you, then there is a serious case for a nit fold and only play pots with shorties

dtm75

In Response to Re: FINAL TABLE MISTAKE MAYBE??:

By laying down queens in these spots you will end up with lots of 3rds/4ths/5ths. By taking the +EV route, you will probs have a few 6ths, but more 1sts / 2nds. Good luck.
Posted by jakally

Thanks for the response. +EV route, as you lay out above, 14BB to win 28BB.  For clarity, is this essentially an even money chance I've landed myself in?  So, if I'm likely to be behind to this kind of move < 50% of the time it's always the correct call (+EV)? 

In football terms, akin to a bookie offereing me evens on Arsenal last night at half time?  Likely to win more than 1 in 2 times?

Admittedly, I've been (I actually live) down the "I'd rather avoid confrontation and get 2nd/3rd than 6th" route on the half or dozen final tables I've played in the past. Don't think I've ever played all out to win, just to try and get to final table and then see how things go.

Cheers