Communications can be difficult.

unknown_username

Cheers for the update Alan. I read the last thread but refrained from posting any comments on it but was entrigued by it! (untill some one thought the thread had run its course!!)

unknown_username

I've been having some communications with the AGCC regarding the following question -''what checks are made relating to the function of an RNG and any subsequent checks made to ensure a distribution of cards as outputted by the RNG'' 

Below are some of my questions and the answers I am getting. Is there a communication problem here or is it me?

I asked my initial question as above on the ''contact form'' on their website. The answer was this:

> Thank you for contacting the Alderney Gambling Control Commission.
> You will need to address your query regarding random number
> generators directly to the relevant Alderney eGambling licensees.
> Unfortunately you have not provided details pertaining to any
> operators and therefore I am unable to provide the relevant contact
> details.

Not happy with that I sent this:

Dear Sirs,

Thank you for your prompt reply to my question. You suggest I ask the licensee but I'm not sure they are qualified to answer. The question I 
asked related to what checks are undertaken by yourselves or your agents to determine what happens after the shuffle. Correct me if I am wrong 
but I imagine the answer can only come from yourselves as the overseeing body.

Their answer was this:

> Thank you for your email. I was correct in referring you to contact
> the relevant licensee, who will be more than qualified to answer your
> query regarding the operation of the random number generator and any
> queries you may have relating to game play.

I replied with this:

Dear Sirs,

Thank you once again for your prompt reply. It is my understanding that you licence and oversee a number of poker sites. As part of the granting 
of the licence to operate you have to be satisfied regarding a number of areas of the licensee's operation. One of these areas relates to the 
shuffle of the cards and the licensee is required to have the RNG audited to demonstrate that the cards are generated correctly. However the RNG 
certificate only relates to how the RNG performs and makes no mention of what happens after the shuffle. My question relates directly to the 
function of the shuffle and any subsequent software employed to perform the deal. Surely you can understand that this is not a question for the 
licensee, just as the issuing of a RNG certificate isn't, after all they aren't able to self certify their RNG. RNG certificates are undertaken 
and issued in order to give confidence to users of the sites you control, but they only fulfil one half of the function of dealing the cards, the 
second part of the function is the delivering of those cards to each player. My original request was for information relating to what checks are 
undertaken relating to the fair and unbiased allocation of the shuffled cards to the table. I'm sure you can understand that this is not a 
question for the licensee unless there are no checks undertaken by yourselves or your agents. Could you please confirm that checks are made and 
give me details, or alternatively, confirm that no checks are undertaken.

They replied with this: 

> Thank you for your email. Please see the below link to the Alderney
> Gambling Control Commission’s Technical Standards document, which
> should contain all relevant information you require:

At this point I have come full circle as this is where I started from and my original question relates to this document. I replied (trying very hard to remain polite) with this:

Thank you for the link to the AGCC Technical Standards document. 

As it seems you are unable to answer my original question with a simple yes or no answer, perhaps you could explain what this extract from the 
document you sent me actually means. ''T Outcomes derived from the RNG are to be distributed within statistically expected bounds, including 
normal distribution.'' 

As the document covers a variety of games could you confirm, or otherwise, that this relates to on line poker rooms? Could you extrapolate this 
statement?

I now have their answer - or do I? 

Thank you for your email. The Alderney Gambling Control Commission’s primary responsibility is to make sure the games that are offered within our jurisdiction are fair, secure and safe. Bearing this in mind, the AGCC regulate many poker rooms and no two are alike. The concept you are questioning relates to land based casino’s, where a physical deck of cards exists. In the online gaming world, the deck of cards is virtual and therefore every poker room has different coding in how they deal the initial cards and the subsequent flop. Section 4.3 covers all the checks we make with regards to the Random Number Generator (RNG). In particular 4.3.5 vii) states As events of chance occur, they should be immediately used as directed by the rules of the game; they are not discarded due to adaptive behaviour by the game. In lay terms, the results from the RNG must be used and not be discarded no matter what the outcome.

They are now concentrating on discarded cards, They have managed so far in a series of emails to avoid the original questions:

''what checks are undertaken by yourselves or your agents to determine what happens after the shuffle''

''Could you please confirm that checks are made and give me details, or alternatively, confirm that no checks are undertaken''

I'm not asking difficult questions, as these relate to what they do, not what the sites do. I simply want to know if they have any checks in place - they seem unable or unwilling to answer that. I don't think any amount of emails and questions is going to get them to answer my questions. So much for open and above board regulation. 

This post may or may not be deleted. I think all the people who read the original RNG thread are entitled to an update.

debdobs_67

Well elsa no one can say you aint tried can they now? I reckon you knew that they would not give any clear answers to you main questions anyway eh? Best of luck at the tables my friend xxx

Sky_Bernie

Hi all,

I have already answered the RNG question twice in the last few days, but for completeness I will add my comments to this thread once again. 

Please find below a link below which will take you to the section of our FAQ's which answers all the questions raised about our RNG, it's testing and the AGCC who ensure that we operate within their strict guidelines.

https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/getting-started/faqs#J

Kind regards,

Bernie

unknown_username

In Response to Re: Communications can be difficult.:

Hi all, I have already answered  the RNG question twice in the last few days, but for completeness I will add my comments to this thread once again.  Please find below a link below which will take you to the section of our FAQ's which answers all the questions raised about our RNG, it's testing and the AGCC who ensure that we operate within their strict guidelines. https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/getting-started/faqs#J Kind regards, Bernie
Posted by Sky_Bernie

Hi Bernie,

Yes I've seen this link. It states very clearly that you are regulated by the AGCC, and I don't think anyone could misunderstand that.

Because of that fact I addressed my query directly to the AGCC. I think I'm right in saying that it has been suggested before that we do that very thing. I think you will agree that the AGCC are being somewhat obscure in their answers to what started off as a very simple question. I should point out that I did not mention Sky by name as it was not my intention to focus on any one site, rather to ask the question in a general sense that it related to all sites they oversee.

Surely there can be no objection to any member asking a question relating to a certificate which is intended to assure all players of an equal and unbiased game. Asking the supplier of that certificate seems to be the right course of action but of course you may choose not agree with that.

The original post was intended purely as an update for those interested.

(I might add that I have tried a number of times to contact TST who evaluate and supply the RNG certificate. All my emails have either been blocked or ignored.)

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Communications can be difficult.:

Hi all, I have already answered the RNG question twice in the last few days, but for completeness I will add my comments to this thread once again.  Please find below a link below which will take you to the section of our FAQ's which answers all the questions raised about our RNG, it's testing and the AGCC who ensure that we operate within their strict guidelines. https://www.skypoker.com/secure/poker/sky_lobby/getting-started/faqs#J Kind regards, Bernie
Posted by Sky_Bernie

So you'll comment on this thread without any real need yet not answer a question that is clearly directed to you?

ige

with regards to the ORIGINAL question about the distribution of cards after the shuffle under the RNG, from which i can see no straight answer is being given, surely Sky who use the RNG should find or somehow obtain the answer to provide reassurance for it's customers rather than posting links, which contain no real answers to the original questions.

unknown_username

Another site update tonight for ''essential maintenance''

Let's hope it's an RNG service and filter change.

emilyegg

Very interesting stuff Alan.

It certainly leaves unanswered questions........

unknown_username

Despite further emails to AGCC and the RNG certifiers TST, both refuse to answer any questions. 

I notice that Sky Bernie hasn't taken up AMYBR's offer to discuss any of the points arising from the closure of the RNG thread, other than to refer everyone to the RNG certificate. That's the certificate that neither the regulators or the certifiers are willing to discuss with anyone ......... but Sky are proud to display it as their guarantee that all is fair and above board.

Can you smell it too?

ige

in one word yep

oynutter

There must be a reason why they are based in an off-shore tax haven and are answerable to no-one in the whole world ever--- innit?--- Try asking them that--- lol