DYM - Early Shove - Correct Fold

futsalref

With all 6 players still in I had a good chip count and considered three options.

1. Fold - Wait for a better opportunity.

2. Call - Risking around 1/3 of my stack but the possibility of being a coin flip or other players entering the pot.

3. Raise - Isolate the all-in.

I reluctantly fold as I'm expecting the best case is a coin flip against JJ or lower pair.
  PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancexxxx 1Small blind50.0050.001635.00xxxx 2Big blind100.00150.002105.00 Your hole cardsAQ   RaiserAll-in1067.501217.500.00xxxx 3Fold1765.00futsalrefFold2992.50xxxx 41985.00xxxx 1xxxx 2
I appreciate the feedback as always. I'll let you play it as I had to and then I'll post the actions of the remaining players and how the hand played out.

Thanks

DOHHHHHHH

This one is defo worth thinking about.

Think I would jam the lot in though.

JohnConnor

Definate fold for me this one, no need to get involved here.

GREGHOGG

Well if John thinks its a fold... i guess it is, but...

I think its fairly close because the shover has worse aces in their range and KQ etc...

A reship all in isnt terribad imo with the chips we have behind.

futsalref

Here is the remainder of the play.

I expect BB would likely have called/gone all-in if I had called or raised.

Don't want to results orientated as I would have come out on top on this occasion but it would have been so easy to lose.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
xxxx 1	Small blind		50.00	50.00	1635.00
xxxx 2	Big blind		100.00	150.00	2105.00
	Your hole cards	A Q
Raiser	All-in		1067.50	1217.50	0.00
xxxx 3	Fold
futsalref	Fold
xxxx 4	Fold
xxxx 1	Fold
xxxx 2	Call		967.50	2185.00	1137.50
xxxx 2	Show	Q Q
Raiser	Show	10 K
Flop
		J A J
Turn
		8
River
		7
xxxx 2	Win	Two Pairs, Queens and Jacks	2185.00		3322.50

YOUNG_GUN

I fold before reading the results

half of your stack and someone else has gone all in, still 2 more to act so chances are they might call

main thing is you have nothing invested so would wait till your the one shoving/ raising

Dudeskin8

Snap fold, next hand please.

myg0tDeath

insta reraise all in. For me dym is all about having alot more chips when it get down to the bubble than every one else because every one plays so tight and you will have the chip stack to just play nice hands.

If you are on your starting stack when its down to 4 players there in no skill involed its just hope and pray tbh

YOUNG_GUN

^^^epic fail above post^^^^ its not about who gets the larger stack although it helps

myg0tDeath

In Response to Re: DYM - Early Shove - Correct Fold:

^^^epic fail above post^^^^ its not about who gets the larger stack although it helps
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

How is this fail? this is what i do and i have turned 13.50 from winning a free roll into 450 in 6 days.
Yes it had back fired a few times but risk vs reward is far to great to fold aq..

YOUNG_GUN

regardless whether you have built a bankroll based on these calls although i doubt it, each hand is different and there is no set way to play the hand.

In the long run i can pretty much gurantee you the right decision would be to fold here in this position... however if they was in a different position or different stacksizes it maybe a +EV call also we have to add any reads into the equation aswell if we have any

You have built the bankroll based on bad players it doesn't mean that call is correct long term, maybe a better player or someone who can explain better can add to this?

myg0tDeath

In Response to Re: DYM - Early Shove - Correct Fold:

regardless whether you have built a bankroll based on these calls although i doubt it, each hand is different and there is no set way to play the hand. In the long run i can pretty much gurantee you the right decision would be to fold here in this position... however if they was in a different position or different stacksizes it maybe a +EV call also we have to add any reads into the equation aswell if we have any You have built the bankroll based on bad players it doesn't mean that call is correct long term, maybe a better player or someone who can explain better can add to this?
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

So your sitting with AQ and the short stack all-ins and you have three times his stack and you dont call? At best hes gona have a small pair ace rag or two picture cards.

YOUNG_GUN

Its not about the shortie, its because we have people behind us

If its only you and the shortie i would snap call this

DOHHHHHHH

I think the people left to act behind us have a very minimal influence on our decision making process here.

If we jam, their range of calling hands is SO narrow that they are almost insignificant, as they fold 95% of the time.

How strong does our jam look? As has been proved by some recent posts in the clinic, alot of people will fold QQ and certainly AK in the BB if we jam here.

I can't believe it's such a clear cut fold, I really can't......

As I said earlier, I would jam the lot in.

The guy should be shoving quite a wide range by dym standards, which includes alot of hands we dominate.

Get the lot in, and hold.

-----------------------------

I argued to case of folding 99 in a dym, when we opened and got re-shipped on.

That's obviously completely different, I'd be lucky if I was racing in that spot.

Here, I'm confident I have the best hand alot of the time.

-----------------------------

As an aside, for the dym regs......

Do you find there's more than 1 optimul style to play dyms?

Like a conservative, low-variance grinder might fold here, and a more aggressive high variance(and obv in that case, high volume) grinder may instantly ship it?

Is there always a right/wrong without reads?

Or is there room for different styles in this format?

JohnConnor

In Response to Re: DYM - Early Shove - Correct Fold:
As an aside, for the dym regs...... Do you find there's more than 1 optimul style to play dyms? Like a conservative, low-variance grinder might fold here, and a more aggressive high variance(and obv in that case, high volume) grinder may instantly ship it? Is there always a right/wrong without reads? Or is there room for different styles in this format?
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

You ask some interesting (if extremely tricky) Qs JJ, here is my two pennies worth anyway.

1) I think that may be a contradiction in terms but to be concrete I would say no, I do believe there is one optimal way to play DYMs. I think Richard Orford was correct when he said that DYM strategy can be 'cracked'. This is to a large extent but see 4) below where I think this may start to break down.

2) I'm not 100% sure I understand this but I think that I must come in the conservative, low varience grinder category. And yes there are players who instantly reship this so I guess they can be described as more aggressive and high varience. But I do believe one play is more effective over time.

To tie back in with the original hand here, I think it is quite marginal and so either play probably is profitable over time. However, one will be more profitable and that is the one we strive to go with as players. (FWIW I went with fold on this hand.)

3) I think this is by far the easiest part to answer. If you take any hand in a vacuum (which is much more easily done in DYMs than say, cash I believe) and you assume no reads then yes, I do believe there is always a 'correct' play. (But, if you could easily take cash hands in a vacuum, wouldn't this also apply to cash poker or any form for that matter?)

4) This is also tricky to answer in depth but fairly easy to answer giving a general principle. I believe that:

As the game gets harder (which usually means as you go up the stakes), the more room there is for different styles.

So in, say, £2.20 or £5.50 DYMs I think that if you play and master a tight aggressive style which loosens up as necessary towards the end, you cannot fail to make a profit over time. I think that even if you could play a very good loose aggressive style in these games and turn a profit it would be wasted and not optimal.

Conversely, if you played, say, a £55 DYM the tight aggressive style begins to break down and may no longer be optimal. Everytime you raise in levels 1-3 it's going to fold round unless it's a complete cooler. In lower stakes games there are plenty of weak players who don't realise what a narrow range you're opening in these levels and will gift you double ups quite often. Also, calling ranges get adjusted at tougher tables so that you can no longer, really, fold down to 8BBs and shove any 2 in any unopened pot. The players at these stakes will easily cotton on and you will find yourself coming 4th or worse more often. Also, players don't tangle with silly hands nearly as often so you will be playing very high blinds with 6 players left far more often. All these things mean you need, (at least more so than in lower level games) to get chips early on and as I have said you cannot do this playing ultra tight. So a loose aggressive style becomes much more viable, at least in my opinion.

Again going back to the original hand here, if you read between the lines you might notice that I'm implicitly saying that (I believe) you should be more willing to call with the AQ hand in a £55 DYM than in a £5.50 one. Just to confirm, yes, I do believe that is correct and my fold would turn into a call if it was a particularly tough £55er and particularly if the shover is a strong opponent who is likely to cause me problems if allowed back in the game.

JC

DOHHHHHHH

So.............

Even though you believe that shipping it in here is probably going to be the best move....

You don't do it, because it's a higher variance play that you don't need to do, as you are confident you have the edge to play a lower variance game at this level and still cash?

-----------------------

The lower you believe your edge to be at the table, the more willing you are to accept these marginally profitable shoving/re-shoving spots?

Folding the AQ here, and jamming the sb on the bubble bvb with 67s suited unopened is preferable at lower levels (if it comes to that) because you can "get away with it" and exploit the BB's naivety when it comes to shove/calling ranges in lower staked dyms?

So your edge later in the game influences your decision at this stage? - Wheras higher up, your edge on the field isn't significant enough to decline spots such as this ^^^^^^^^^^^ ?

-------------------------

Used alot of posh words which basically concludes that the softer(lower) the game is, the more 'careful' you can be in the early stages?

YOUNG_GUN

JJ you had ur weetabix today

salazar

Remember it is not enough just to be ahead of their range, sometimes i'd fold if the cards were turned on their back and i was ahead.
This is not cash, we are not trying to play the odds, we are trying to get in the money and that involves not putting your tourney at risk when your only 60/40 fav.
Try to be the one shoving, not calling. when you call in this situation, you have to see 5 cards and you have to win. when you shove there's a good chance you'll take it down pre

On a 60/40 shot i can find a better situation to put my tourney at risk. A situation where i can shove and put the decision on my opponents. Remember, you don't need cards to shove, your opponents need them to call.

futsalref

Thanks for all the great feedback and discussion on folding a hand that in so many other situations is a shove.

Really interesting and as always great to get comment from you all.