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Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think...

CLIOKIDCLIOKID
edited March 2011 in The Poker Clinic
Hand ID - 342152606


I called pre as felt the opener was raising a lot of hands, happy to play this hand in position against him and short stack limper.  Obviously it goes 4-way to the flop and when villain calls out of the SB I'm puting him on a pretty strong hand.

Left villains name in, sure he won't mind. I've not got a massive history against him but played enough to know that he is solid and I can't see him bluffing here in a 4-way pot.

Is this an easy fold? I don't usually fold these, it didn't feel good!

What are peoples thoughts on this?
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Comments

  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID
    edited February 2011
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancePostalJoeSmall blind £0.25£0.25£118.41cottladBig blind £0.50£0.75£47.12 Your hole cardsQJ   yCall £0.50£1.25£22.65xRaise £2.50£3.75£71.88CLIOKIDCall £2.50£6.25£45.93eatmysetFold    PostalJoeFold    cottladCall £2.00£8.25£45.12yCall £2.00£10.25£20.65Flop  9QQ   cottladCheck    yCheck    xCheck    CLIOKIDBet £5.13£15.38£40.80cottladRaise £15.39£30.77£29.73yFold    xFold    CLIOKIDFold    cottladMuck    cottladWin £19.48 £49.21cottladReturn £10.26£1.03£59.47
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  • hurst05hurst05
    edited February 2011
    i think he raises here with a variety of combo draws. i shove the lot in and let him call with his flush draw. saying that im playing horrifically badly lately lol
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  • DeucesLiveDeucesLive
    edited February 2011
    I can't see how you can fold this, really can't... there are soooo few hands you're scared of.

    99, Q9, KQ and AQ are the only hands beating you here. It's almost impossible he's got AA/KK, certain he'd raise with that many players in the pot.

    I don't see him getting involved with Q9, and with 2 queens on board and 1 in your hand, it's very tough to put him on another queen with a stronger kicker- I can see him set mining with 9's at those odds, so that's what I'd be most scared of. But even if that is the case, you're not drawing dead- you've still got the J and Q outs, which gives you ~12% or so.

    That's the bad news. The good news is there's a stack of big draws he can make that move with- 10J clubs definitely springs to mind, and various other club/straight draws, suited connectors are great to play in multiway pots. Could also have 8-10 clubs, KJ/K10 clubs, poss AJ/A10 clubs.

    If I have to put him on a hand, I'd be torn between 10J clubs and 99, but with the amount already in there and the amount more it's costing you, I'd have to just jam the lot in and hope to bink if I'm behind, I think there's a lot more drawing hands in his range than made hands. Cottlad is a very, very good player and I'm sure he's capable of using his image to squeeze a few semi-bluffs.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited February 2011
    J10 suited is the nuts :)
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  • pryce6pryce6
    edited February 2011
    The only hand I can put him on that you beat is JTc and even then you are only 55/45. I think he probably has KQ/99, good fold imo. Unless he is just on a stone cold bluff - but he must know when u bet half there you basically have a Queen.
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited February 2011
    I don't play cash but I would find it very hard to fold trips here and so would probably just shove.
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  • N1CKN1CK
    edited February 2011
    i cant see him raising with a draw as its multi because i think that would be bad in this spot, tbh i cant see any real point raising at all with a made hand unless he puts you on a draw, i would guess he puts you on a draw so i would shove here and hope my kicker is good (iv just woke up and il prolly read this later and cringe lol)
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  • ybyb
    edited February 2011
    bet bigger on flop, good fold imo.

    KQ I'd prob continue, as is I don't think our kicker is ever good here.
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  • N1CKN1CK
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think...:
    bet bigger on flop, good fold imo. KQ I'd prob continue, as is I don't think our kicker is ever good here.
    Posted by yb
    so why is KQ better to continue do you think you get more chops?....................
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited February 2011

    haha I wonder what goes through cottlads mind when he continues to read these threads where people fold the nuts against him.

    He must exploit it big-time surely??????
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  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID
    edited February 2011
    Im pretty sure he has 99 here.

    If he had AQ/KQ I think he'd raise bigger incase I was the one betting a draw. 

    And the raise size is pretty small too, looks like it is trying to lure me in.
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  • Sky_DaveSky_Dave
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think...:
    Hand ID - 342152606 I called pre as felt the opener was raising a lot of hands, happy to play this hand in position against him and short stack limper.  Obviously it goes 4-way to the flop and when villain calls out of the SB I'm puting him on a pretty strong hand. Left villains name in, sure he won't mind. I've not got a massive history against him but played enough to know that he is solid and I can't see him bluffing here in a 4-way pot. Is this an easy fold? I don't usually fold these, it didn't feel good! What are peoples thoughts on this?
    Posted by CLIOKID
    FWIW, I'd have to put him on KQ/QJ/QT/Q9/99 exactly for his line to make much sense. You might be able to chuck in some of those combo draws mentioned by hurst05 too - JTcc, KJcc, etc, but those are again pretty specific hands.

    I think I'd have to get it in here. You've got boat outs and I we're just becoming too exploitable if we're folding top set, 3rd kicker. If he's coolered you, he's coolered you. I'd hate passing this here though.
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  • Sky_DaveSky_Dave
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think...:
    The only hand I can put him on that you beat is JTc and even then you are only 55/45. I think he probably has KQ/99, good fold imo. Unless he is just on a stone cold bluff - but he must know when u bet half there you basically have a Queen.
    Posted by pryce6
    You don't think QT is in his range here?
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  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think...:
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think... : You don't think QT is in his range here?
    Posted by Sky_Dave
    This villain isn't playing QT out of the SB to a 5x raise.

    Im happy to get it in against anyone else on the table.

    Often in this spot I get it in even though I feel I'm beat and I'm usually right - I am beat. So on this occassion I thought a pass was right.
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  • N1CKN1CK
    edited February 2011
     villains seen y&x check (you cant check a Q on that board) hero bets small (which he shouldnt with a queen) and i think he would expect you to check a draw so he could be stealing?
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  • Sky_DaveSky_Dave
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think...:
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think... : This villain isn't playing QT out of the SB to a 5x raise. Im happy to get it in against anyone else on the table. Often in this spot I get it in even though I feel I'm beat and I'm usually right - I am beat. So on this occassion I thought a pass was right.
    Posted by CLIOKID
    Not even in a pot which he might feel is going to go four-way and against some deep stacks? I wouldn't chuck QT out of the ranges too quickly, personally. I tend to try funnel the hand ranges down according to the whole story - the preflop arguments for QT might be a little loose, but it would certainly tie in with his postflop line, so it has to be considered to some extent, IMO.
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  • pryce6pryce6
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think...:
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think... : You don't think QT is in his range here?
    Posted by Sky_Dave

    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think...:
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think... : This villain isn't playing QT out of the SB to a 5x raise. Im happy to get it in against anyone else on the table. Often in this spot I get it in even though I feel I'm beat and I'm usually right - I am beat. So on this occassion I thought a pass was right.
    Posted by CLIOKID
    This basically.

    I would stick my roll on him not having QT here. He has KQ/99, possibly AQ, not sure if he 3-bets that or not.
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  • pryce6pryce6
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think...:
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think... : Not even in a pot which he might feel is going to go four-way and against some deep stacks? I wouldn't chuck QT out of the ranges too quickly, personally. I tend to try funnel the hand ranges down according to the whole story - the preflop arguments for QT might be a little loose, but it would certainly tie in with his postflop line, so it has to be considered to some extent, IMO.
    Posted by Sky_Dave
    Thing is villain is solid and won't pay 5x oop to basically flop a straight/flush/2pr/trips. Doesn't happen often enough, he'll know most of the time he will flop top/middle pair and be crushed - hence easy fold pre.
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  • N1CKN1CK
    edited February 2011
    i think its fine for him to call pre with Q 10 multiway even more so soooted,

    pryce how much is your roll?
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  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think...:
    i think its fine for him to call pre with Q 10 multiway even more so soooted, pryce how much is your roll?
    Posted by N1CK
    Not saying there is anything wrong with him calling QT suited multi-way, but personally not sure he does.

    Hopefully get this hand played out on Sunday so that I can see that I've been pwned. 
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  • Sky_DaveSky_Dave
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think...:
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think... : Not saying there is anything wrong with him calling QT suited multi-way, but personally not sure he does. Hopefully get this hand played out on Sunday so that I can see that I've been pwned. 
    Posted by CLIOKID
    If you're not sure he does, that means he's doing something right. Poker would be so much easier if you knew what he was up to, hence why I tend to go for all possibilities before definitely eliminating them.

    Oh, and for the record, I am not convinced he has QT either. I just definitely think it's a contender, *especially* considering the post flop action.
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  • christiannchristiann
    edited February 2011
    i think he has AQ.
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  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think...:
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think... : If you're not sure he does, that means he's doing something right. Poker would be so much easier if you knew what he was up to, hence why I tend to go for all possibilities before definitely eliminating them. Oh, and for the record, I am not convinced he has QT either. I just definitely think it's a contender, *especially* considering the post flop action.
    Posted by Sky_Dave
    Why would QT raise so little pricing in draws?

    I'm nigh on certain he has 99 here and is trying to draw value out of a Q.
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  • Sky_DaveSky_Dave
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think...:
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think... : Why would QT raise so little pricing in draws? I'm nigh on certain he has 99 here and is trying to draw value out of a Q.
    Posted by CLIOKID
    Which draws would we worry about? Axcc is definitely a contender, but otherwise it's gutshots? Playing devil's advocate again, maybe he's raising smaller as he's not 100% sure he has the best hand? Again, not my way of playing it (I'd be raising Qx, 99 and bluffs all to the same amount), but possible?
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  • dtm75dtm75
    edited February 2011
    Given you are unlikely to lead out (but leading out is the new checking tho innit?) with an ok Q, could easily see Cottlad with any PP, maybe 10 10 or even a smaller one? 

    Your lead out bet looks like you've hit a good draw (open ended straighty or NF draw) and he figures a strong re-raise will make it too expensive to pursue your draw and if you had a 9, maybe convince you he has a Q?

    I, for one, would shove it in and "nh" him if he's got a better hand.
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  • scotty77scotty77
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think...:
    Given you are unlikely to lead out (but leading out is the new checking tho innit?) with an ok Q, could easily see Cottlad with any PP, maybe 10 10 or even a smaller one?  Your lead out bet looks like you've hit a good draw (open ended straighty or NF draw) and he figures a strong re-raise will make it too expensive to pursue your draw and if you had a 9, maybe convince you he has a Q? I, for one, would shove it in and "nh" him if he's got a better hand.
    Posted by dtm75
    no point in raising TT/JJ as you are not getting called by worse and the hands that you do get called by are likely to be big combo draws that you aren't that ahead of.

    cottlad has basically JTcc/AQ/KQ and maybe QJ.
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  • pryce6pryce6
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think...:
    i think its fine for him to call pre with Q 10 multiway even more so soooted, pryce how much is your roll?
    Posted by N1CK
    5x oop? I think that would be a leak. Not really sure why u ask the other Q.

    Scotty has his range, but add 99 in there.
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  • CLIOKIDCLIOKID
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think...:
    In Response to Re: Is this a terrible fold? One for the Poker Clinic to look at on Sunday I think... : Which draws would we worry about? Axcc is definitely a contender, but otherwise it's gutshots? Playing devil's advocate again, maybe he's raising smaller as he's not 100% sure he has the best hand? Again, not my way of playing it (I'd be raising Qx, 99 and bluffs all to the same amount), but possible?
    Posted by Sky_Dave
    Axcc, JTcc, KTcc?

    I think it's an interesting spot.

    To be honest I usually go against my gut and stick it in here, and then they turn over what I expected them to have and think why did I not go with my instinct.

    So, for once, I go with my instinct. 

    It would have been a good fold if I was right, had I not stacked off on a bluff in the same orbit. Lol.

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  • dtm75dtm75
    edited February 2011
    no point in raising TT/JJ as you are not getting called by worse and the hands that you do get called by are likely to be big combo draws that you aren't that ahead of.

    cottlad has basically JTcc/AQ/KQ and maybe QJ
    good point well made :)

    Related Q: is TT/JJ an insta-fold here then?  flat calling an option? just one over which has paired up?
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  • zingzing
    edited February 2011
    he raised you 3x how is this even a remotely small raise when you look at stack to pot ratios

    pretty bad logic to just pin point 99 cause of this
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