Asked a question, got my answer, but still couldn't fold?!?!

jamielou

Here's my thinking, opponant raised UTG, I flat as there's not many flops I'm going to like here in this position. When it eventually comes a flop I do like, I check to the raiser and let him C-bet, standard. I asked the question, 'how good are my 8s?' by reraising, to which I get a min re-raise. I don't know what this min re-raise is, so I flatted here too, £3.50 into £18.
The turn comes another blank, and my opponant thought for some time (or was busy) and half-potted it. To me it just felt like he was reluctant to put anymore in but had to follow-through with the re-raise on the flop. So in goes the money and the rest, well, the rest was me kicking myself.

My questions are,

Was I right to flat call pre?
Was I right to ask the question on the flop by re-raising?
Should I have folded to the min re-raise?
Is he doing this min re-raise with anything I am beating?
Where is my fold button?

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancejamielouSmall blind £0.25£0.25£48.70BA14Big blind £0.50£0.75£30.86 Your hole cards88   riveratbagRaise £1.50£2.25£32.48tappazukiFold    remymannFold    Pillsy19Fold    jamielouCall £1.25£3.50£47.45BA14Fold    Flop  242   jamielouCheck    riveratbagBet £1.75£5.25£30.73jamielouRaise £5.25£10.50£42.20riveratbagRaise £7.00£17.50£23.73jamielouCall £3.50£21.00£38.70Turn  7   jamielouCheck    riveratbagBet £10.50£31.50£13.23jamielouAll-in £38.70£70.20£0.00riveratbagAll-in £13.23£83.43£0.00jamielouUnmatched bet £14.97£68.46£14.97jamielouShow88   riveratbagShowJJ   River  6   riveratbagWinTwo Pairs, Jacks and 2s£66.66 £66.66
Thank you
Jamie

pryce6

Fine to flat pre.

I would just flat the flop, control the size of the pot and keep in hands that you are beating. The problem with raising is once he clicks it back at you, there is not much you are beating that he does that with, and it puts you in a horrible position. I don't mind flatting it because he makes it so cheap, but once he half pots the turn you have to fold.

You say his bet on the turn looked weak, but I would have thought the opposite. He's sitting with 20 odd quid left and he bets half of it...never folding imo.

Wacko90

Hi jamie. One question i try and ask myself in these spots is, when i get to the end of a hand, am i really going to commit my entire stack on just ONE pair. So your call of the pre flop raise is fine and then you ask the question fine on the flop by re raising. Now the raise back at you is too small to fold that is true, but can you honestly think you are ahead? 

He raised pre flop- (could have a range of cards)

The flop comes low and he bets (looks like a continuation bet, so you re raise and thats fine)

He puts a small re raise in ( this is the crucial part for me. His re raise was never going to get you to fold. If he was weak, he would of put a bigger raise in, making it more likely youl fold. He min raised, he was looking for value, so this shows he was very strong, stronger than a mere pair of eights)

Then he value bests the turn, at the very most i am calling this bet on the off chance he had bluffed at every street but i would think i may be behind. The re raise means your only going to get called by a 4 or overpair?

Was the river bet a semi bluff? Did you think you were ahead? Look at how strong hes played it

jamielou

I think the "half-pot bet and hesitation on the turn felt weak" seemed more hopeful than realistic, I think I was hoping it was weak so I could justify the call.

Wacko - really liked what you said about committing most of my stack on one pair, that's a good way of looking at it.

I need to get out of the habit of being "hopeful" and start being realistic, what was I actually beating? A pair of 7s and a bluff, so why risk my stack for that, FOLD IT and find a better spot!

I asked the question and got the answer I was looking for, but with the flop looking so pretty I still couldnt fold, I need to get past this and fold when I am 99% certain I am beat, despite the flop being how I'd like it! I might have had a pair of 8s on a 4 high flop, golden, but with the way the hand played realistically, I wasnt beating much.

Thanks very much,
Jamie

ratedRKO

In Response to Re: Asked a question, got my answer, but still couldn't fold?!?!:

Fine to flat pre. I would just flat the flop, control the size of the pot and keep in hands that you are beating. The problem with raising is once he clicks it back at you, there is not much you are beating that he does that with, and it puts you in a horrible position. I don't mind flatting it because he makes it so cheap, but once he half pots the turn you have to fold. You say his bet on the turn looked weak, but I would have thought the opposite. He's sitting with 20 odd quid left and he bets half of it...never folding imo.
Posted by pryce6

THIS

jamielou

In Response to Re: Asked a question, got my answer, but still couldn't fold?!?!:

Fine to flat pre. I would just flat the flop, control the size of the pot and keep in hands that you are beating. The problem with raising is once he clicks it back at you, there is not much you are beating that he does that with, and it puts you in a horrible position. I don't mind flatting it because he makes it so cheap, but once he half pots the turn you have to fold. You say his bet on the turn looked weak, but I would have thought the opposite. He's sitting with 20 odd quid left and he bets half of it...never folding imo.
Posted by pryce6

Thanks for your reply, just a few questions.

If I flat the flop, what if the turn comes something ugly and I've given him the chance to hit that?
If I ask the question on the flop, am I not getting rid of those, AK, AQ, AJ hands? That was my plan...

With the min re-raise on the flop I felt I couldnt fold there for what it was worth, had he put a bigger re-raise in I think I couldve gotten away from it.
 
So with the min re-raise, should I just flat and see if he slows down on the turn, if he doesnt, then fold, rather than him half-potting the turn and me jamming it in?

yb

Raising flop is bad, your hand isn't strong enough to raise to protect. By raising you're just gonna fold out everything you beat and lose more of your stack when you're behind. Flatting keeps in his bluffs/draws etc. and then reads/turn card will determine how to play the turn.

As played, fold to his flop 3bet. You're nearly always behind and aren't getting the implied odds to try to spike an 8 on the turn.

CLIOKID

Pretty much what yb said.

Raising the flop just bloats the pot and your out of position, and you only get action from hands that have you beat.

You have to ask yourself before the check raise why you are doing it and how you are going to react to it.

How are you going to play the turn if he flat calls your raise? How are you going to play it if he 3-bets you etc etc.

DOHHHHHHH

The Pryce is right.

pryce6

In Response to Re: Asked a question, got my answer, but still couldn't fold?!?!:

In Response to Re: Asked a question, got my answer, but still couldn't fold?!?! : Thanks for your reply, just a few questions. If I flat the flop, what if the turn comes something ugly and I've given him the chance to hit that? If I ask the question on the flop, am I not getting rid of those, AK, AQ, AJ hands? That was my plan... With the min re-raise on the flop I felt I couldnt fold there for what it was worth, had he put a bigger re-raise in I think I couldve gotten away from it.   So with the min re-raise, should I just flat and see if he slows down on the turn, if he doesnt, then fold, rather than him half-potting the turn and me jamming it in?
Posted by jamielou

No worries.

YB and Clio pretty much covered your questions. I'll add that if you flat the flop and say an Ace comes on the turn, which is in his range, then you can fold if he puts in a second barrell. Of course a thinking player will know that and probably put the bet in regardless...but that's the kind of thinking you'll need to do

Also, someone said you have to fold to the 3 bet on the flop. I actually don't mind flatting it and seeing what he does from there. If he slows down then great, if he doesn't then fold.