All Categories› Poker› Poker Chat

You need to be logged in to your Sky Poker account above to post discussions and comments.

You might need to refresh your page afterwards.

Sky Poker forums will be temporarily unavailable from 11pm Wednesday July 25th.
Sky Poker Forums is upgrading its look! Stay tuned for the big reveal!

Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post

2

Comments

  • jakallyjakally
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    I can't reconcile the boards or beats that are seen to any core principle of math.  Only speaking from my experience it runs frm the ever increasing improbable to the impossible.  I am speaking of online poker in general.
    Posted by AMYBR
    I was playing a live MTT last week... in truth only messing around til the cash game opened.
    Was having a bit of banter with the guy 2 to my left.
    His BB next, and he says 'if you jam on my big blind again I will call blind'.
    I have 15 BB's, and without looking stick it in, he sighs and says 'I'm a  man of my word...' and duly calls.

    I turn my cards over, 'KK' (wiiiiiiiiiiii) what's the chance of picking up KK when I blind shove?
    He turns over a 9, and leaves the other card face down.

    Flop comes 922, can't remember the rest.
    He flips his other card, obv a 2!

    What's the chances of that?

    I've seen plenty of 1 / 2 outers live, quads over quads, quads v straight flush etc....

    I've been involved in 6 £3k+  pots live, in the last couple of months, been flippping or ahead in 5, and only won 1.

    Therefore I am sure you can understand why I find it difficult to accept the argument that some of the things you see online, never would happen live.

    When someone loses a 65/35 shot, we can spend hours listening to how unlucky they are.... how often do you hear someone win one of these and tell everyone how lucky they are. Why lucky? Well basically, because they only deserved 65% of the pot, and got 100% of it.

    People's perceptions are massively skewed to being more greatly impacted by a negative turn of events, than by a positive outcome.

    (...and breathe...).

    I've yet to see anyone post any evidence that SkyPoker are anything but straight, or any sensible reason why they would not be.
    I'm not expecting that situation to change any time in the forseeable future.

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • jakallyjakally
    edited February 2011

    I've seen on this thread, and in another thread, the comment that Skypoker should be doing something about convincing us that they are on the level. And an inference that not doing this infers that something may not be right.

    Why should they. If it was my business, I probably wouldn't do anything. 

    Why not?

    - it's difficult to change minds that are already made up.
    - if I know I am reputable & honest, why should I waste my time trying to prove it, when there is no evidence to the contrary.
    - it would be a difficult / complicated and expensive thing to do.

    There is a point of view that by not doing this, they are losing business.
    I'm not sure that is the case.

    Most of the 'area 51' posts are from losing players. Usually, despite their moans and groans, they still play.
    If you offered them proof that it wasn't a rigged poker site that was causing them to lose, they may finally find out that they are pretty poor at the game.... and give up. No excuses left, see.

    And a lot of the people who leave SkyPoker to go and play other sites, will come back at some point.
    Not all, but that is the reality of business, and SP seem to be winning more new customers than they are losing, so alll's good in that area.

    Sermon over..... have a nice day.

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited February 2011
    If you ask questions about the tests carried out on card distribution you are referred by Sky Bernie to the RNG certificate. On there it clearly states that the tests are carried out by TST, who are approved and overseen by the Alderney GCC. If you then direct your questions to those companies you are either ignored or, despite numerous communications, they will not give a straight answer. Even when the question is put in such a way that a straightforward Yes or No answer can be given - no answer is forthcoming. When you then direct details of that communication back to Sky it is ignored or you are then given a link to the RNG Certificate - so it's back to square one.

    If that seems Ok then there really is little more to be added.




    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : I was playing a live MTT last week... in truth only messing around til the cash game opened. Was having a bit of banter with the guy 2 to my left. His BB next, and he says 'if you jam on my big blind again I will call blind'. I have 15 BB's, and without looking stick it in, he sighs and says 'I'm a  man of my word...' and duly calls. I turn my cards over, 'KK' (wiiiiiiiiiiii) what's the chance of picking up KK when I blind shove? He turns over a 9, and leaves the other card face down. Flop comes 922, can't remember the rest. He flips his other card, obv a 2! What's the chances of that? I've seen plenty of 1 / 2 outers live, quads over quads, quads v straight flush etc.... I've been involved in 6 £3k+  pots live, in the last couple of months, been flippping or ahead in 5, and only won 1. Therefore I am sure you can understand why I find it difficult to accept the argument that some of the things you see online, never would happen live. When someone loses a 65/35 shot, we can spend hours listening to how unlucky they are.... how often do you hear someone win one of these and tell everyone how lucky they are. Why lucky? Well basically, because they only deserved 65% of the pot, and got 100% of it. People's perceptions are massively skewed to being more greatly impacted by a negative turn of events, than by a positive outcome. (...and breathe...). I've yet to see anyone post any evidence that SkyPoker are anything but straight, or any sensible reason why they would not be. I'm not expecting that situation to change any time in the forseeable future.
    Posted by jakally
    Jackally:  I could take losing 20 65/35's in quick sucsession without batting an eyelid.  Thats poker, not a real issue.  I'm talking 85% upwards and far too many less than 1%ers.  I'm not some clown who doesnt understand odds or variance.  Also yes bad beats happen live frequently, but its the level of frequency that I wont reconcile.  I'm not a member of the higher hand per hour club.

    JockBMW:  To be honest bud the juries out for me.  I do think that there is huge potential for online poker to be rigged, but that doesnt make it so.  I also recognise that if this was the case  then it would mostly be against a profitable business model.  I would not say with confidence that poker is rigged.  What I will say is that, for many reasons, Live vs online play is uncomparable.  My main concern falls with the RNG's, so if there is an issue it doesnt neccassarily mean the host sites are complicit in it.  Based on intensive live experience I simply cannot accept the action seen.

      But I think the most important thing is that it is OK and healthy for consumers to have this debate openly, without being demeaned and attacked at every turn.  Shunting anyone who raises concern or are looking for an informed debate to a forum headed "area 51" says it all.  I joined this forum around a month ago to genuinely ask peoples opinions on the matter, in an open non critical way.  I was instantly labelled a moaning nutter and put in area 51.  To me this speaks volumes.  My mind still remains undecided, but I have found more and more that the industry simply isnt keen on people sharing exeriences in a sincere way.  Most worryingly a very polite, well mannered thread on RNG's was closed for no reason or explanation.

    Dealers at casino's arent beyond reproach.  Its not uncommon for players to share concern and on occasion a dealer will be investigated and found of wrongdoings.  Should online players not have the right to share concerns and be treated with respect?  (Devils advocate hat again - There are some individuals that whine on about three hands they lost without really realising they were only 60/40 so I get why some players rudely dismiss peoples concerns.  But if you look beyond these types there are people conducting very polite informed debates)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • ChirpyChipChirpyChip
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : if theres one difference between live and online play its that online is alot harder than live poker at the same levels
    Posted by LOL_RAISE

    +1

    To even suggest Live Poker is more difficult and challenging than online poker at the same levels is absurd..... Online Poker is far more difficult...

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited February 2011
    See where does the basis of this come from?  6max live full ring, short hand, capped, deep stack... whichever.  Poker is poker.  Percentages are percentages.  There is no real reason for it to be harder.  The game is the same.  Surely it is only your feel for your opponent and thinking time that changes.  It being online or live shouldnt change a thing to the game or action, merely your ability to play it.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • offshootoffshoot
    edited February 2011

    um the skill level of your opponents obviously is the difference. Its not even up for debate on which is harder.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited February 2011
    Everything is up for debate bud,  Isnt that the point?  I think there is an element of Bias to be fair. 

    How many of you decent stakes online cash players have many years experience decent stakes live?  But either way, its not important, this really isnt the larger issue. 
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • debdobs_67debdobs_67
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : This is pretty lol. Not only do the conspiratory theorists not trust the motives of the online poker sites, they now don't trust the motives of anyone who tries to put a counter argument. 
    Posted by jakally
    Yep EXACTLY, as is anyone who puts any valid counter argument the other way eh? so LOOOOOOOL straight back at you mr big shot ;)
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • pod1pod1
    edited February 2011

    again nice post amybr, no company is beyond approach, no government no individual. my concern in online gambling only became apparent when speaking to somebody who set up a franchise poker league. they also had an online site as well, during the conversation i commented on the amount of royal flushes i had had while playing on the "play money" tables( 4 in a mnth). he told me that the play money tables were"glammed up" to bring in new players to the game. now at no point did he infur the money tables were running on the same rng(but why would you have 2). things like facebook poker(never played it) i hear has an obscene amount of high end hands. both free money and facebook poker most have an rng, and my point is ,if these can be distorted to produce more"glam" hands why not any other rng. (dont know if they have the "CERTIFICATE"). NB AT NO POINT IS THIS POST DID I SAY SKY IS FIXED, this is not my thinking and i am talking about other rngs not this one.ps i have read 2 of your 3 posts sepe and for a man who claims to play 5/10 hu you seem to be lacking the brain space to put a constructive post together with out insulting people, maybe your 4th attempt may prove me wrong, but if you read this i very much doubt it!!!!!!!

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • loonytoonsloonytoons
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    If you ask questions about the tests carried out on card distribution you are referred by Sky Bernie to the RNG certificate. On there it clearly states that the tests are carried out by TST, who are approved and overseen by the Alderney GCC. If you then direct your questions to those companies you are either ignored or, despite numerous communications, they will not give a straight answer. Even when the question is put in such a way that a straightforward Yes or No answer can be given - no answer is forthcoming. When you then direct details of that communication back to Sky it is ignored or you are then given a link to the RNG Certificate - so it's back to square one. If that seems Ok then there really is little more to be added.
    Posted by elsadog
    And it costs up to £150,000 for the certificate so are they really gonna look too deeply into their paymasters rng anomolies ?
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : And it costs up to £150,000 for the certificate so are they really gonna look too deeply into their paymasters rng anomolies ?
    Posted by loonytoons

    It costs that amount for the Licence........ the RNG certification is extra

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • simuksimuk
    edited February 2011
    Jakally has just ended the debate with his last two posts imo. 


    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited February 2011
    I suppose he has if you haven't bothered reading what anyone else had to say.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • pod1pod1
    edited February 2011
    ive never posted in area 51, i am a winning player, i am winning at this moment in time, i love playing at sky, have never left or claimed to be leaving, i am a 41yr old man with a good education and a good family life that enjoys playing poker. i am also allowed an opinion and in my opinion this debate is far from over!
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Seagull158Seagull158
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : you write the same old stuff over & over again its rather boring. if you dont like it the door is that way<<<<<<<<<<<< simples!!!
    Posted by seppe
    If thats the best response you can manage maybe you should make it your last post.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • jakallyjakally
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : Yep EXACTLY, as is anyone who puts any valid counter argument the other way eh? so LOOOOOOOL straight back at you mr big shot ;)
    Posted by debdobs_67
    Never been called a big shot before... will take it in the complimentary way (I assume) it was intended.

    As far as I know, I haven't questionned the integrity of anyone putting a counter argument, and have no reason to.
    Ambyr has put up some sensible posts, and I have replied with my point of view... as far as I see it a grown up debate on a contentious subject.


    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • jakallyjakally
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    I suppose he has if you haven't bothered reading what anyone else had to say.
    Posted by elsadog
    Problem is Elsa, that no-one who is on the 'is it rigged' side of the discussion, has put forward any evidence to support their point of view.... it's mostly, I don't trust online poker, and it's up to the poker sites to MAKE me trust them.

    This maybe a slight over simplification, but it's not far from the truth.

    Occasionally, someone interjects with a 'I once met this man...', but it's rarely / ever a solid source with a name, and the sites they are referring to, and why we should believe them.

    If it is that bad, why can someone not come up with some evidence that says 'over 100,000 hands the river card was an Ace 14% of the time, instead of just under 8%.

    That would be far better, as a basis for a debate.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Seagull158Seagull158
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    I've seen on this thread, and in another thread, the comment that Skypoker should be doing something about convincing us that they are on the level. And an inference that not doing this infers that something may not be right. Why should they. If it was my business, I probably wouldn't do anything.  Why not? - it's difficult to change minds that are already made up. - if I know I am reputable & honest, why should I waste my time trying to prove it, when there is no evidence to the contrary. - it would be a difficult / complicated and expensive thing to do. There is a point of view that by not doing this, they are losing business. I'm not sure that is the case. Most of the 'area 51' posts are from losing players. Usually, despite their moans and groans, they still play. If you offered them proof that it wasn't a rigged poker site that was causing them to lose, they may finally find out that they are pretty poor at the game.... and give up. No excuses left, see. And a lot of the people who leave SkyPoker to go and play other sites, will come back at some point. Not all, but that is the reality of business, and SP seem to be winning more new customers than they are losing, so alll's good in that area. Sermon over..... have a nice day.
    Posted by jakally
    There was a thread running in area 51 recently abou tthe seemingly extraordinary number of "action" hands being dealt. I believe there were a number of winning players contributing to the thread and questioning the veracity of the rng and/or the downstream card delivery process. The card delivery process, in particular, is being questioned for two reasons; 1. the certification, testing and published policies do not categorically state anywhere that the cards are delivered to the table in the exact sequence that they are generated by tthe RNG (a rather large omission) and 2. it would be extremely easy to run a program downstream of the RNG that selects specific cards from the remaining deck at any time and deals them to the table in order to generate "action".
    It does not help the situation that Sky is regulated by an obscure organisation registered in Alderney that refuses to answer direct questions with explanatory answers.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Seagull158Seagull158
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    Jakally has just ended the debate with his last two posts imo. 
    Posted by simuk
    No offence meant, Simuk, but if that's what you think you're not much of a thinker. Perhaps a second read of the thread from start to finish with an open mind might help.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Seagull158Seagull158
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : Problem is Elsa, that no-one who is on the 'is it rigged' side of the discussion, has put forward any evidence to support their point of view.... it's mostly, I don't trust online poker, and it's up to the poker sites to MAKE me trust them. This maybe a slight over simplification, but it's not far from the truth. Occasionally, someone interjects with a 'I once met this man...', but it's rarely / ever a solid source with a name, and the sites they are referring to, and why we should believe them. If it is that bad, why can someone not come up with some evidence that says 'over 100,000 hands the river card was an Ace 14% of the time, instead of just under 8%. That would be far better, as a basis for a debate.
    Posted by jakally
    A year or more ago there was a thread running on here discussing why Sky can't/won't improve the way that hand histories are stored and accessed. Currently, a large sample of hand histoies cannot be accessed, downloaded and analysed. That is why, for example, it is not possible to use HEM on Sky. Without the ability to download hand histories into a database for analysis it is impossible to produce any statistics except for trivial ones based on a small sample that is much too small to be statistically valid.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : Problem is Elsa, that no-one who is on the 'is it rigged' side of the discussion, has put forward any evidence to support their point of view.... it's mostly, I don't trust online poker, and it's up to the poker sites to MAKE me trust them. This maybe a slight over simplification, but it's not far from the truth. Occasionally, someone interjects with a 'I once met this man...', but it's rarely / ever a solid source with a name, and the sites they are referring to, and why we should believe them. If it is that bad, why can someone not come up with some evidence that says 'over 100,000 hands the river card was an Ace 14% of the time, instead of just under 8%. That would be far better, as a basis for a debate.
    Posted by jakally
    There are currently a number of class action law suits in America based upon this exact thing.  I myself took a 100k hand history to FT with concerns, was given the run around for months then was threatened with account closure.  Believe me bud, people do present sites with erroneous hand histories.  In turn I pose a question to you, Where something may be found to be erroneous, who investigates it?  Who ajudicates it?  There is no mediatary or external investigating body, other than the offshore licence provider.  They provide a license, nothing more.  This is why many individuals have turned to the courts.

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • jakallyjakally
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : There are currently a number of class action law suits in America based upon this exact thing.  
    Posted by AMYBR

    Can you point me in the direction of a link to this... would be interested in finding out a bit more about it.

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • dylan12dylan12
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : Can you point me in the direction of a link to this... would be interested in finding out a bit more about it.
    Posted by jakally
    Post more fish :D

    I luv ya x 
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • jakallyjakally
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post :    In turn I pose a question to you, Where something may be found to be erroneous, who investigates it?  Who ajudicates it?  There is no mediatary or external investigating body, other than the offshore licence provider.  They provide a license, nothing more.  
    Posted by AMYBR

    Fair question, and one to which I do not have a complete answer.

    The online poker community does a decent job of policing it's environment (the TwoPlusTwo poker forum is probably the best example of this), and where there have been previous issues, these have been highlighted to the point that sites have taken action to address.

    Although SkyPoker handhistories cannot be downloaded / statistically analysed, all of the biggest sites have thousands of people each day using tracking software.
    Many of the players who use tracking software look at / analyse the data regularly.

    I am not aware of any evidence arising from this that shows that online poker is rigged.
    If there were any serious issues, surely there would be a huge scandal by now?

    How does this apply to Sky? Because just as a small minority of SP players do not trust / openly criticise SP, on a daily basis people are saying exactly the same things about these sites ('Jokerstars', etc...).





    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : Can you point me in the direction of a link to this... would be interested in finding out a bit more about it.
    Posted by jakally

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulltiltpoker.com

    This should get you started.  Also see state of Kentucky sues Full tilt, I'll put more up later.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • jakallyjakally
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fulltiltpoker.com This should get you started.  Also see state of Kentucky sues Full tilt, I'll put more up later.
    Posted by AMYBR
    None of that is anything to do with RNG's, and whether online poker is rigged.


    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : There are currently a number of class action law suits in America based upon this exact thing.  I myself took a 100k hand history to FT with concerns, was given the run around for months then was threatened with account closure. s.
    Posted by AMYBR

    100k hand sample is meaningless
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : None of that is anything to do with RNG's, and whether online poker is rigged.
    Posted by jakally

    I never said poker WAS rigged, and as i also said I shall add more

    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited February 2011
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post:
    In Response to Re: Is online poker rigged? - Blog Post : 100k hand sample is meaningless
    Posted by LOL_RAISE

    100,000 hand sample is meaningless???  are you serious?? OMG
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
Sign In or Register to comment.