Improving cash play

DeucesLive

Recently I've been reading and learning from Harrington, and trying to work on restructuring my cash approach, and trying to use the slightly more conservative approach to big hands.

Villain is new to table- on the flop, KK has good showdown as well as the gutshot too- ordinarily I would c-bet this mostly and carry on representing the A, but as Harrington would say- small hand, small pot- if I bet, I'm essentially turning a solid hand with a moderate draw into a bluff, since if I get raised I have no business being in the hand. In position I probably bet out, opinions on the flop? My c-bet frequency so far had been pretty high, villain may have seen me c-bet once or twice since arriving.

After seeing his check, I put a feeler bet out to see what was happening. The call tells me one of two things, I think- he has an A, or he just picked up a flush draw.

Based on that, when I see the flush on the river I have one of two choices- attempt to rep it, or check with intention of folding. If he has the flush he's never folding, if he has the A he's still unlikely to fold I think- but did I give up on the kings a little too cheaply?

I think I'm probably beat, and how I would normally play I lose a lot more money, just curious how people find this approach.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
dogcharlie	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£19.70
blueberr27	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£20.17
	Your hole cards	K K
DeucesLive	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£37.69
MJX	Fold
xxxx	Call		£0.60	£1.50	£15.74
blackbeltb	Fold
dogcharlie	Fold
blueberr27	Fold
Flop
		A Q 10
DeucesLive	Check
xxxx	Check
Turn
		9
DeucesLive	Bet		£0.80	£2.30	£36.89
xxxx	Call		£0.80	£3.10	£14.94
River
		7
DeucesLive	Check
xxxx	Bet		£1.55	£4.65	£13.39
DeucesLive	Fold

Dudeskin8

I'd probably bet £1.20 on flop and shut down once called.

DeucesLive

Another hand soon after- again with the conservative strategy, I decided against raising pre with the KQ, and possibly getting myself involved in a hand multiway which could easily be dominated, and not liking many flops.

Having got involved, flop looks great- but again, I stuck with a conservative approach until someone massively overbet the pot. Easy fold, or call/raise? I felt the hand was too vulnerable on that board personally, but is it worth seeing a little more? Villain had hardly been involved in any hands, but I did see him make one big overbet previously- never saw the end result, though.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
DeucesLive	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£40.15
MJX	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£15.68
	Your hole cards	Q K
Mollymoo06	Call		£0.20	£0.50	£18.86
blackbeltb	Fold
xxxx	Call		£0.20	£0.70	£20.11
blueberr27	Fold
DeucesLive	Call		£0.10	£0.80	£40.05
MJX	Check
Flop
		J 9 Q
DeucesLive	Check
MJX	Check
Mollymoo06	Check
xxxx	Bet		£2.00	£2.80	£18.11
DeucesLive	Fold

LOL_RAISE

first hand i cbet flop and then give up, might possibly bet the river for value very small to get Qx Tx to call but i think flop is definately a  valuebet

Dudeskin8

2nd hand, dead money in the middle why wouldn't you raise pre? Again I don't play cash but this is just a standard 5x after two limpers right, then c-bet top pair flop ?

DeucesLive

What do you think about the approach of checking and controlling the pot- I mean, how many hands call you on the flop that you're beating? I mean, I suppose you get value from KQ/QJ, but if he then chooses to semi-bluff raise there, how happy are you with the hand? Obviously if he's missed completely he folds, but how many cards on the turn change the situation from you being ahead to behind? I was planning on calling a street if he chose to bet the flop, but being out of position made the whole hand a lot harder to play.

CLIOKID

In Response to Re: Improving cash play:

2nd hand, dead money in the middle why wouldn't you raise pre? Again I don't play cash but this is just a standard 5x after two limpers right, then c-bet top pair flop ?
Posted by Dudeskin8

KQ out of the SB is a tricky hand to play and is not a definite raise IMO.

It's fine dependant on reads on the limpers if you know they are limping worse K's and Q's etc. 

I don't mind making up with this occassionally.

RogueCell

In a tourny with limpers KQ in SB is a definite raise.  Not true in cash though.

DeucesLive

In a tourney (assuming we're past say the 75/150 stage and I'm anything under 25bbs) I jam with KQ in this spot almost 100% of the time, definitely. I know it looks like dead money in the middle, but people will very often defend their limps quite vigorously, and I don't really want to inflate a pot which is likely to be at least 3-way on the flop and I'm very likely to be behind. In position I would take a different line and almost definitely raise, but being first to act on a multiway flop is almost always going to be a nightmare unless I flop trips or better.

This flop looks pretty decent for my hand, but multiway it looks extremely dangerous which is why I took the line of checking and looking for some info- my thought was that although there's a possibility I'm ahead, it's probably not by much- the flop has hit the limpers range hard, and I'm very likely to be behind now to a two pair combo, possibly even the made straight. With only 20p invested, I decided it's probably safest to just duck out of the way now before things get too aggro- I don't want to call his bet and essentially chase the J, since that's the only card in the deck really helping me, and I certainly can't warrant raising and getting myself pot stuck.

Is any of this line of thought flawed at this level? Should I be giving up this quickly- sure, it's top pair and very strong kicker, but it just seems to be dominated by too many hands for me to really feel any confidence in it.

Dudeskin8

Why does a jack help you in the second hand ?

DeucesLive

10 sorry, I forgot the board- I thought it was Q109, same difference. I'm calling looking for a gutshot was what I meant, the 2 pair is worthless and trips may be good, but could easily end up costing me a massive pot.

LOL_RAISE

KQ is a super auto iso raise in the SB vs limpers

DeucesLive

Another thing I've been experimenting with recently- the overbet shove to represent a missed draw holding the nuts. Wondering on opinions on this? Would it have worked better if I flat the turn, or if I'm going to raise- raise the flop? I flatted on the flop since I was getting such good odds, but felt I had to put some money in the pot on the turn to set up the river play. At a guess, he was on the flush draw himself and I was never getting any more anyway, so maybe a smaller bet induces the bluff? Will this play be profitable over time in spots like this?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
fishman402	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£20.57
DeucesLive	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£31.78
scottp86	Big blind		£0.20	£0.50	£2.80
	Your hole cards	5 7
xxxx	Raise		£0.40	£0.90	£14.22
scottp86	Fold
Ubbi4820	Fold
bustout44	Fold
fishman402	Call		£0.30	£1.20	£20.27
DeucesLive	Call		£0.20	£1.40	£31.58
Flop
		8 6 A
fishman402	Bet		£0.20	£1.60	£20.07
DeucesLive	Call		£0.20	£1.80	£31.38
xxxx	Raise		£0.40	£2.20	£13.82
fishman402	Call		£0.20	£2.40	£19.87
DeucesLive	Call		£0.20	£2.60	£31.18
Turn
		4
fishman402	Check
DeucesLive	Check
xxxx	Bet		£0.80	£3.40	£13.02
fishman402	Fold
DeucesLive	Raise		£2.20	£5.60	£28.98
xxxx	Call		£1.40	£7.00	£11.62
River
		3
DeucesLive	All-in		£28.98	£35.98	£0.00
xxxx	Fold
DeucesLive	Muck
DeucesLive	Win		£6.65		£6.65
DeucesLive	Return		£28.98	£0.35	£35.63

CLIOKID

I don't like it tbh.

What sort of hand is he flatting the turn with that he is prepared to call river shove with?

DeucesLive

Another one- this time with a pp over the board. The limp reraise pre instantly set alarm bells ringing, but I'd been raising about 15 hands per orbit, so there is a possibility he would play back at me with anything. In poisition I felt flatting was the best play, but if I'm out of position, should I 3 bet fold here? Or even in position, should I 3 bet fold/call?

On the flop after the check, again looks pretty painless but he put a little dwell up before calling, and again I had concerns- possible set of 8's, or still the overpair- course, overcards are still very possible or A8 at a push. After the check on the turn I decided to check behind and see what he did- if he was on a bluff, he's going away, and if he has me crushed I'm now committed to calling off.

On the river he checks again, and this is the major decision now- do I valuebet? If I do, how many hands call me that I beat? Possibly A8 and definitely 99, but I can't think of many more. If he has checked a monster (I have a very aggressive rep at the table so far) then again, I'm pot stuck. So is checking behind acceptable here or possibly missing out on value?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SHANKS474	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£19.63
SJspanky1	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£12.02
killeen45	Sit out
	Your hole cards	10 10
tallula959	Fold
xxxx	Call		£0.20	£0.50	£12.94
DeucesLive	Raise		£0.80	£1.30	£65.44
SHANKS474	Fold
SJspanky1	Fold
xxxx	Raise		£1.20	£2.50	£11.74
DeucesLive	Call		£0.60	£3.10	£64.84
Flop
		8 6 2
xxxx	Check
DeucesLive	Bet		£2.20	£5.30	£62.64
xxxx	Call		£2.20	£7.50	£9.54
Turn
		3
xxxx	Check
DeucesLive	Check
River
		3
xxxx	Check
DeucesLive	Check

DeucesLive

Oh, and the overbet- I put him on a relatively strong ace, and hoping he'd believe I was drawing to the flush, and missed- figuring I wouldn't bet with a nut hand. I don't think he was a particularly strong player, and there wasn't a really obvious straight there, so a half decent ace would be strong there.

Of course, I think he was drawing to the flush himself, so I doubt I was getting anything more this time anyway, but my logic was it's better to bet huge and get called on the rare occasions he does have something, than bet small and most likely get no action apart from on those occasions anyway.

I'll often vbet normally there, but been trying this move once or twice and it does seem to get paid off more than you'd expect so far.

5toneFace

Your thinking about hands that can call are from a tight persons point of view.

His line is pretty weird. Its defo a bet on river. Id bet turn aswell. I'm pretty sure he has AK AQ, tho. Thats why i'd bet turn. He might call a bet on the river the way you played with Ace high, thinking you have nothing.  Especially as you said you have an aggressive image.

After you check the turn, he will not check the river with a very good hand (sets, over pairs) because you are going to check behind a lot.

LOL_RAISE

i prefer overbetting between 1 and 2 times the pot, if its much bigger then they just arent going to be calling enough of the time without history between you two

DeucesLive

Last cash hand for today.

Still have a hugely aggressive tendency, and bet out on every flop whether hit or not- felt this one is right in his range, so went for the check on flop, left the turn as well to give him room to bluff river.

Went for the value bet on river, and got called by a slowplayed set which obviously got cold feet on the river- think that was a very poor bet on my part, is there anything here that calls me which isn't beating me?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SHANKS474	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£17.00
scrumdown	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£20.72
	Your hole cards	K Q
tallula959	Fold
min6max12	Fold
grump	Call		£0.20	£0.50	£41.01
DeucesLive	Raise		£0.80	£1.30	£86.58
xxxx	Call		£0.70	£2.00	£16.30
scrumdown	Fold
grump	Fold
Flop
		8 7 6
xxxx	Check
DeucesLive	Check
Turn
		Q
xxxx	Check
DeucesLive	Check
River
		10
xxxx	Check
DeucesLive	Bet		£1.00	£3.00	£85.58
xxxx	Call		£1.00	£4.00	£15.30
DeucesLive	Show	K Q
xxxx	Show	6 6
xxxx	Win	Three 6s	£3.80		£19.10

LOL_RAISE

bet the turn yourself river is kinda thin but i dont hate it

percival09

Hand 5 -bet turn check river, just surprising he played a set that passively. 

Hand 3, the over bet ... the thing is you weren't repping the flush the whole way through the hand, you wouldn't flat the flop bet and then decide to raise the turn with a flush draw / the over bet isn't ideal it's so obvious you have a massive hand, and with you only investing a small amount into the pot and then you shove, it makes no sense. 

Hand 2 (KQ SB) - I'm the opposite to RogueCell, in a tournament i'm making up all day long, in cash i'm raising all day long, but then again i prefer an aggressive approach to cash, making up isnt the worst play.

Pocket 10's .. pre/flop and turn fine .. I'd probably value bet £3 though on the river .. you will get called with worst hands and he can't have played JJ,QQ,KK or AA that passively surely. 

Most important thing in cash is to maximise your profits, if you think you have the winning hand bet it! Also, at this limit, people limping in are going to be limping in with small PP / speculative hands which 75% of the time will completely miss the flop and you can take it down with a C bet, also, don't be scared to fire a 2nd barrel, more and more these days i see people ''floating'' the flop, and then a standard bet on the turn gets it done. 

DeucesLive

Playing 40nl, fairly ABC while I adjust to the table and new limit, but decided to try an adventurous play. Obviously I'm crushed by the end, and the cards are kinda awful obviously, the pure intent was to represent a big hand. Paired flop tends to be a nice one to bluff at, but others know that too- should I have shut down then? Based on the fact he may have floated, I went for the second barrel, then the flat call tells me he either has a J he's not happy with, or he has the goods. Fire the third barrel or not? I think it forces any J and possibly ace to fold, or am I perhaps giving too much credit? Is the hand not believeable?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
norris966	Small blind		£0.20	£0.20	£35.73
ujkucakran	Big blind		£0.40	£0.60	£36.82
	Your hole cards	2 8
Ozzie08	Fold
mattbald26	Call		£0.40	£1.00	£33.80
Goldtia	Fold
DeucesLive	Raise		£1.60	£2.60	£53.87
norris966	Fold
ujkucakran	Fold
mattbald26	Call		£1.20	£3.80	£32.60
Flop
		10 10 J
mattbald26	Check
DeucesLive	Bet		£2.40	£6.20	£51.47
mattbald26	Call		£2.40	£8.60	£30.20
Turn
		A
mattbald26	Check
DeucesLive	Bet		£6.00	£14.60	£45.47
mattbald26	Call		£6.00	£20.60	£24.20
River
		5
mattbald26	Check
DeucesLive	Bet		£12.00	£32.60	£33.47
mattbald26	Raise		£24.00	£56.60	£0.20
DeucesLive	Fold
mattbald26	Muck
mattbald26	Win		£42.80		£43.00
mattbald26	Return		£12.00	£1.80	£55.00

LOL_RAISE

someone who is limp calling pre is not thinking 'oh look a paired board thats good to bluff at so im going to float OOP and take it away later'

fold pre obv.

pryce6

In Response to Re: Improving cash play:

someone who is limp calling pre is not thinking 'oh look a paired board thats good to bluff at so im going to float OOP and take it away later' fold pre obv.
Posted by LOL_RAISE

haha this!

doing what you did is fairly awful.

N1CK

In Response to Re: Improving cash play:

In Response to Re: Improving cash play : haha this! doing what you did is fairly awful.
Posted by pryce6

this has to be the understatement of the year,

if i could think of a word stronger than diabolical i would be definitely using it

LOL_RAISE

In Response to Re: Improving cash play:

In Response to Re: Improving cash play : this has to be the understatement of the year, if i could think of a word stronger than diabolical i would be definitely using it
Posted by N1CK

super-diabolical?

DeucesLive

lolll gotta throw in a curveball once in a while, keeps things interesting

whether or not it impacted I'll never know, but around half an hour later I stacked someone at the same table with a hand that played out almost identically, only I held the nuts this time and he called away with top pair no kicker. Future investment ftw ^^

DeucesLive

Flopped a massive draw- bet sizing about right? Was aiming for somewhere in the region of 2/3 to 3/4, would that be about right?

Having missed the draw, should I then just shut down and hand over the pot or make an attempt on the river?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Goingbust2	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£98.20
Spad3s	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£57.50
	Your hole cards	K 10
carpinon	Fold
Snakeey747	Fold
DeucesLive	Raise		£1.50	£2.25	£76.87
Goingbust2	Call		£1.25	£3.50	£96.95
Spad3s	Call		£1.00	£4.50	£56.50
Flop
		Q 5 A
Goingbust2	Check
Spad3s	Check
DeucesLive	Bet		£3.00	£7.50	£73.87
Goingbust2	Call		£3.00	£10.50	£93.95
Spad3s	Fold
Turn
		6
Goingbust2	Check
DeucesLive	Bet		£7.50	£18.00	£66.37
Goingbust2	Call		£7.50	£25.50	£86.45
River
		9
Goingbust2	Check
DeucesLive	?

N1CK

In Response to Re: Improving cash play:

lolll gotta throw in a curveball once in a while, keeps things interesting whether or not it impacted I'll never know, but around half an hour later I stacked someone at the same table with a hand that played out almost identically, only I held the nuts this time and he called away with top pair no kicker. Future investment ftw ^^
Posted by DeucesLive

Deuces you dont need to create an image as they already know your a fish thats why they are all sitting at your table  ;-)

DeucesLive

I did wonder why there were 8 people on the waiting list for my table...

pryce6

haha

Re last hand, i'd bet like 17ish and expect him to fold