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Good example of why I'm a losing online player?
How do, I realise I'm posting alot lost couple of days but am trying to adjust my POV and it seems to be helping, so thankyou for being patient with me.
Played NL S+G 18 handed $30 a while ago. Plodding along quite nicely 2nd in chips with 5 players left.
Button raises 2.5x, I'm sat in the SB with KJs I call, BB also calls. Button raise had been very active and felt like I had the best hand, plus best image to take down the pot mostly, regardless of flop.
Flop comes KdJd2c. I check, BB checks button raiser makes it 2/3's pot. Think about 800 into 1400. I make it 2100 to go with the check raise - with around 7500 behind, but If I'm honest its such a draw heavy flop I'd love an easy pick up there. Button calsl the extra 1400.
KdJd2c As
Honestly cant decide If the As is a good card or bad card. If I'd got luck against AJ/AK I'm now in bad form, the guy had to call my check raise with more than two napkins, best case scenario is the D draw, worst case scenario the !0Q.
I think the card freezes my snakebit brain a little, so I check, He checks behind.
KdJd2c As 4c
I check, looking to check call, but he checks behind again showing 35d. Surely I lose this pot with my passive play at the turn? I never check the turn live, I lead out, believing my hands good until I'm told otherwise, maybe three quarter pot. But also my online head tells me I'm going to get called so wide at the turn that there are so many cards that are going to freeze me in my tracks I'm just so much better off letting the card come then decide, which is pretty perverse.
Played NL S+G 18 handed $30 a while ago. Plodding along quite nicely 2nd in chips with 5 players left.
Button raises 2.5x, I'm sat in the SB with KJs I call, BB also calls. Button raise had been very active and felt like I had the best hand, plus best image to take down the pot mostly, regardless of flop.
Flop comes KdJd2c. I check, BB checks button raiser makes it 2/3's pot. Think about 800 into 1400. I make it 2100 to go with the check raise - with around 7500 behind, but If I'm honest its such a draw heavy flop I'd love an easy pick up there. Button calsl the extra 1400.
KdJd2c As
Honestly cant decide If the As is a good card or bad card. If I'd got luck against AJ/AK I'm now in bad form, the guy had to call my check raise with more than two napkins, best case scenario is the D draw, worst case scenario the !0Q.
I think the card freezes my snakebit brain a little, so I check, He checks behind.
KdJd2c As 4c
I check, looking to check call, but he checks behind again showing 35d. Surely I lose this pot with my passive play at the turn? I never check the turn live, I lead out, believing my hands good until I'm told otherwise, maybe three quarter pot. But also my online head tells me I'm going to get called so wide at the turn that there are so many cards that are going to freeze me in my tracks I'm just so much better off letting the card come then decide, which is pretty perverse.
Comments
More than happy to open up my game last 4, but he was sat really deep as was I, he was the only other player who had the potential to hurt me so didnt want to go to war there.
Plus pretty snakebit overall. Just didnt feel it was the best spot to build the pot too big OOP, given that stage of the tournament. Plus BB jams, I cant fold. I'm often accused of thinking too much....
im bad at donkaments but thats what i would do
Suppose you had the villain's hand - 3d5d. It is possible (unlikely, fair enough) that you would have called pre.
On the flop though you would have possibly check-raised his c-bet to buy a free card on the river i.e. played the villain's hand exactly as you played your own, much superior, hand! That's the interesting bit - playing the 35, the same as the 2-pair.
Is it possible that the CR was more suited to the draw and that leading out would have been better with the made hand? I don't know the answer - another point to ponder.
C/R bigger on flop I'd say.
Checking turn is fine.
As is river.
PS: Why TF did the guy check behind his straight on the river?
I dont really like the pre flop 3 bet there, at that stage of the tournament. There's two miniscule stacks, two big stacks (me and this guy) and someone sat in the middle on the bubble. For me, a fold is prefferable to the 3 bet. Often I would throw away the KJ there to a tighter player, but one of the miniscule stacks is in the BB, so the 3 way flop has a good shot at bursting the bubble, also if thh BB jams once I 3 bet, I have no option but to call, putting 25% of my stack atrisk in a likely dominated spot. This guy had been C betting, insta folding to action alot so I like my bet sizing with the flop CR. If he has a hand like AQd, 10Ko there's a reasonable chance he pushes back allin anywho, so am going to see an allin (perhaps) with those hands yet milk every other hand that I'm dominating. I want to keep K9/AJ hands in. But perhaps not race on the bubble against A10d AQd.
His play was quite spewy, mine had been pretty solid. The check raise was designed to let him know just how far behind he was. But live I never do it, unless ....well...... only occassion I can think is HU to the flop, hitting hard against an overly aggressive player who I know folds to a bet. Scrap that, not even then. I'd rather bet into him, let him make a play at it - rather than be beat on the river by a hand that doesnt call on the flop.
Yeah, I never check raise live, ever. If I'm THAT strong I dont want to broadcast it. Beginning to see a real disparity in my online game.
I will check raise live if I'm weak or on a SCB, if Im confident my opponent has no hand, or a hand he doesnt want to get too involved in. But that would be the only real use for it in my game.
But I do seem to do it online. Live it doesnt make sense. Best way to build a pot, get action. I think I must do it online because I'd just rather end the hand as quickly as possible I'm so snakebit!!
Your giving away to much information with the check raise, with a hand, pushing out all the hands you'd rather keep in. Live, I'm happy for cards to come off. I'm good at reading people and the board, great at river bluff catching so it plays well into my strategy. I guess I'm just scared to let people draw online having run bas so long.
Live, happy to let people draw as my game is strong post flop
Online: I do the opposite.
Hmm, i need to think about this abit,
I think if you've established a strong table image then CR with a SCB or weak is far more effective than mixing it in with your usual bag of tricks. Saying that, my staple is Tournament, in a cash game your likely to squeeze more value with the more frequent CR.
Its just that if you've showed major strength with the CR, it makes it very unlikey that your OP wil make a bluff or thin call on the river. If you dont give them that warning it allows them to make mistakes on later street IMO. If your going to check raise, you may as well hope you get to 3 bet. Much more likely to get 2 streets of value at pot size bets, rather than the flop fold - turn/river fold to a bet after the check raise.
Just my thought on it.
But this is why I'm not a big fan of the CR. You force out value, defining your hand too strongly. Ultimately it highlights my mistake in this hand. I lead out on the flop and the turn hands most likely to be over, I have to make it big on the turn though. Or I check turn check call river. About as expensive as the check raise was in any case
i'd guess you got bigger issues like tilt or game selection.
anyway its a $30 18man sng, im guessing a standard structure wudnt pay much for 4th so id disagree to ur obection to 3bet this guy and id ignore the risk of a BB shove as they will be aware they have no fold equity over u anyway they will only be shoving a small % of hands on the bubble.
its also nice to be able to get 100bb stacks in by the river when i have a strong hand or draw
I just mean when you have a real hand, why look to check raise when they may check back, opening the door to back door draws for free? I just prefer the leadout, stimulating action and building the pot.
I've kind of come to the decision that my online game is faulty. I do not play the posted hand the same way live at all. I lead out, looking for someone to come over the top with oh so many hands there, or call to a draw. Depending on their stack I re raise all in, or call the re raise looking for a safe turn card, opening big on the turn leaving them in no mans land or dominated with AK (when the A doesnt fall - unlike posted hand)
PR1nnyraid: I am most definately a losing player over the last 2 and half years. I'm just beginning to think my "style" isnt compatible. I'd rather come to terms with it that way than whine like I used to. Putting these threads up this week has just helped me realise my online game differs greatly to my live game, finding more and more holes in it. Dont get me wrong though, I've had an awful span of river 2 outers + losses where I've been 99% on flop.
or do you lead for like 2-3x the pot?
i think you are missing out on a ton of value by never c/ring made hands
I'd never lead for 2/3x the pot.
The only way your going to get 100x BB's in is if your opponent has a hand to go with you in the first place. He is just as likely to come over the top of your bet medium strong if your opening up a lot, than continue to add value after the flop when you've sent up a big flare. You open, they raise or call, your still disguising the strength of your hand (if you flat the re raise). Enabling you to make a increased pot size value bet on the turn or river, perhaps both. But once you check raise the flop your reducing your chance of getting serious action on the turn or river.
You try to check raise your always risking the check behind putting no money in the pot, making any value bet you do make on the turn or river smaller by virtue of the pot being smaller. If you do go down the check raise route your scaring out most of the hands your dominating, even if you do get a call from a draw. A) they make their draw and you've set up a bigger pot to lose
Dont get me wrong, if I've opened strong on the flop and been raised, I may flat to play possum on the turn, hoping any bet my opponent makes will commit him to a turn CR allin. But 90% I just prefer the lead out, or to be playing in position to begin with.
I have to say that I disagree with what you say about checkraising being more common now than 10 years ago, IMO its the complete opposite. Whereas 10 years ago it was a strong move, now the majority of players dont play ABC poker so they are just as likely to re raise an opening bet weak than fold or flat. Again, my views are more closely linked with tournament than cash.
Also whan you comment about playing 8 live hands at 5/10 your making pretty big assumptions and talking jibberish. I'm really interested in peoples input, it has helped me realise there is a big difference in my live/online game. Where I've been in error, I'm happy to acknowledge it. But you seem to only be interested in being kind of rude and condescending. But just for the record, this time 2 years ago my main game was $5/10 cash. But yes, I flamed my bankroll, But I still have the HH from the "flaming" and it really is a sick, sick run. Maybe my game does lean towards caution because of this.
Where comments have been made in connection with hand in the OP I have explained elements and agreed and acknowledged many of the criticisms, so I dont know where your coming from by saying I dont heed and considor peoples input. But in my game, I'm not a big fan of the check raise and I cant pretend that I am, or that I am going to start using it. If I'm totally honest I feel like its mostly a novice play. Its like limping with A's UTG then 4 betting a raise, it just too clearly defines your hand. But thats just my opinion. There are situations where I'd use it, but not when I'm trying to extract value.
But final comment. Many of the best players in the world have hugely different approaches, neither one (except for the obvious) would tell the other what they are doing is wrong or incorrect, as few approaches are diffinitively wrong, simply different. My thinking/processes and decisions may not be along the same line as yours but that doesnt mean you need to keep being rude about it. If you look back you'll see that I actually said I played this hand very wrong in numerous spots, both pre flop and post flop, which all connects back to the theme that I'm exploring: my online game is faulty.