MTT: One household, multiple players?

DannyMcs

Question for Sky folks:

Can you tell me what systems are in place to prevent collusion between people playing an MTT from the same IP address? Or to detect and flag up players from different IPs who might be in cahoots in a tournament? I assume this is pretty easy to spot in cash games if it happens for any length of time, but what about MTTs? Not to get all Area 51 but when
you see the same family members playing the same small tournament day after day I hope it's a reasonable question to ask?

And fwiw pretty much all of the same family players I know on Sky could kick me up and down the felt without any help, I don't want to imply it *is* happening, just that it could, and wondered what measures are in place to prevent it?

debdobs_67

I am ever the optimist so i therefore assume that every single player on this site is as honest as the day is long

acebarry10

Hi Danny

The thing is, variance is so huge in MTT,s, even if someone tried to collude, it would probably be very, very hard for them to be able to do it with any great success without making it absolutely obvious, then the software would pick it up.

DannyMcs

I'm not really sure why you think the high variance of MTTs has anything to do with it? If colluding players end up at the same table (or share notes throughout the MTT) variance doesn't really come in to it.

In any case I'm not particularly concerned about this being widespread or systematic problem, I'm mainly wondering if there's any way to spot people who share the same sofa also sharing a bit of info mid tournament.

SolarCarro

Hi Danny

Sian and myself often play the same tournaments and sometimes end up on the same table, in fact we were once heads up in a tournament!

I suppose if there were suspect folding patterns or obvious chip dumping I would expect a phone call but it's never happened and we are allowed to register in 2 table SNG's for instance.  As long as Sky know it is deffo 2 different people here is not much they can do until they see evidence of wrong doing!

I suppose the only way to stop it is to have a one ip address per player policy but is that really fair? Especially with BT FON where anybody on the BT network can use my router and I can use other BT ones so there is always a way round things. Also people have a sly game at work at lunchtime and that could flag up multiple players from one ip address.

I have met some of the Sky fraud guys and they do exist so I suppose they must know what they are looking for!

Dave

acebarry10

In Response to Re: MTT: One household, multiple players?:

I'm not really sure why you think the high variance of MTTs has anything to do with it? If colluding players end up at the same table (or share notes throughout the MTT) variance doesn't really come in to it. In any case I'm not particularly concerned about this being widespread or systematic problem, I'm mainly wondering if there's any way to spot people who share the same sofa also sharing a bit of info mid tournament.
Posted by DannyMcs

Hi Danny

Thats the whole point , it does, even if they try to collude, there is a good chance they will get someone tagging along with a loose call, or a decent hand, and may well hit, it would be so hard to do it

dylan12

In Response to Re: MTT: One household, multiple players?:

Hi Danny Sian and myself often play the same tournaments and sometimes end up on the same table, in fact we were once heads up in a tournament! I suppose if there were suspect folding patterns or obvious chip dumping I would expect a phone call but it's never happened and we are allowed to register in 2 table SNG's for instance.  As long as Sky know it is deffo 2 different people here is not much they can do until they see evidence of wrong doing! I suppose the only way to stop it is to have a one ip address per player policy but is that really fair? Especially with BT FON where anybody on the BT network can use my router and I can use other BT ones so there is always a way round things. Also people have a sly game at work at lunchtime and that could flag up multiple players from one ip address. I have met some of the Sky fraud guys and they do exist so I suppose they must know what they are looking for! Dave
Posted by SolarCarro

Good post Dave.

P.S. Who won? Sian whooped you I bet  

Hope your both well, may see you in Leeds!! 

DannyMcs

I suppose the only way to stop it is to have a one ip address per player policy but is that really fair?

Yep, that wouldn't be fair, and there's so many ways to get around it it'd be pretty pointless anyway.

I'm sure the fraud guys know what they're looking for, and I trust that any long-term collusion would be spotted, tbh my concern is more about the odd bit of backchannel chat in small but high value tournaments which is going to be next to impossible to spot algorithmically.

cassielou

In Response to MTT: One household, multiple players?:

Question for Sky folks: Can you tell me what systems are in place to prevent collusion between people playing an MTT from the same IP address? Or to detect and flag up players from different IPs who might be in cahoots in a tournament? I assume this is pretty easy to spot in cash games if it happens for any length of time, but what about MTTs? Not to get all Area 51 but when you see the same family members playing the same small tournament day after day I hope it's a reasonable question to ask? And fwiw pretty much all of the same family players I know on Sky could kick me up and down the felt without any help, I don't want to imply it *is* happening, just that it could, and wondered what measures are in place to prevent it?
Posted by DannyMcs

Hi Danny

This is an issue that should be questioned.I have had money refunded by customer services because of collusion in a dym.In that case it was overt and obvious because of chat box records.

However on another occasion i played a well known couple in a dym where i had very strong suspicions.Nothing as obvious as chip dumping,but they never played a single hand against each other. Knowing each others hole cards gives a definite edge.Do you imagine they were playing in separate rooms in silence?

This is the problem with two players playing from the same IP adress

Dave (solarcarro) says he ended heads up in a tournament with his partner.What happened when they were playing three handed?How would any of us feel playing against a couple at the sharp end of a tournament,knowing they knew each others cards?

In no way am i questioning your integrity dave,but you can see how easily abuses could happen.

Collusion is real.It happens.Just search the forum on collusion and see the number of posts by concerned players.

BlackFish3

I think this site relies more on people reporting players, the anti-collusion software doesn't seem great.

a00rock

Danny
I recently contacted customer support when my son opened an account with Sky because he was wanting me to join the same tourney as him. I was unsure whether or not this was allowed so I asked the question via the live chat. The response I got was "this is not allowed and if you do there will be consequences" so I have avoided entering the same Tours or tables as him even though he is mostly 20 miles away at work (don't tell his boss) when he plays on the lappy. Now it seems this may not be the case as I have seen a number of threads where family or boyfriend/girlfriend not only play in the same tours they are sat in the same room as well. This obviously needs clarification one way or the other to prevent honest players falling foul of sky rules.
Ray

SolarCarro

In Response to Re: MTT: One household, multiple players?:

In Response to MTT: One household, multiple players? : Hi Danny This is an issue that should be questioned.I have had money refunded by customer services because of collusion in a dym.In that case it was overt and obvious because of chat box records. However on another occasion i played a well known couple in a dym where i had very strong suspicions.Nothing as obvious as chip dumping,but they never played a single hand against each other. Knowing each others hole cards gives a definite edge.Do you imagine they were playing in separate rooms in silence? This is the problem with two players playing from the same IP adress Dave (solarcarro) says he ended heads up in a tournament with his partner.What happened when they were playing three handed?How would any of us feel playing against a couple at the sharp end of a tournament,knowing they knew each others cards? In no way am i questioning your integrity dave,but you can see how easily abuses could happen. Collusion is real.It happens.Just search the forum on collusion and see the number of posts by concerned players.
Posted by cassielou

Some really good points there Cassie, totally agree. I do think it is very strange that same ip addresses can register for a 1 table DYM, where there is a strong possibility that players are in 1 household, but as far as I can see it is standard for other sites as well, Sian and I played in the same freeroll on another site last night.

I had this convo with a Sky fraud dept employee at a live game in Leeds as he took all my money in a cash game and he was confident they can identify if soft playing or obvious collusion happens, we only ever cross play 2.30 Bounty Hunters as I am a bigger bankroll player than Sian, we sometimes play the forum 10 seater SNG's, never any higher than 2 pound buyin and its fun poker rather than a serious money making business, many times I have run AQ into Sian's AK and vice versa!

Maybe they should only allow one logon to the site from each registered address at one time, theres plenty of other games available if you both want a game at the same time but I suppose that requires a complex software change, I'd support that, I don't think that is unfair.

Good debate!!

scouse_red

As some of you may or may not know, myself and DTWBANDIT run a forum DTD comp on a Monday night and therefore are at the same ip address to make this run smoothly, I have recently started playing in it too, and from my point of view playing 3 tables at once and doing the scores at the same time, I have ( even if I wanted to) no time to discuss or collude in hands in any way.

As Dave says the fraud peeps do know their job and it would be all too obvious to them if anything untoward was going on.

aussie09

My view is that i am perfectly comfortable on the same table as two in the same household when they have openly declared there is a connection.  Playing against SolarCarro and Yorkie74, for example, presents no problem at all.  Similarly Kidgirlgy and Kidgrimsby and so on.  I know them as fine, principled, trustworthy etc.  I would like to see more couples "coming out" too.

Wouldn't it be good to have a software update that flags in-play those players at the same IP address on every table where this occurs?

scotty77

In MTT its fine.  In cash/SnG there might be a big problem.

DannyMcs

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Aussie, I tend to agree and if I was sat at a table with Sian & Dave this question wouldn't even enter my head, but that's because I\ve met/spoke to them both enough to know they're fine upstanding people. I can't say the same for many other family groups on Sky, and while I'm sure most - probably all - are perfectly honest I still think it's a valid concern.

For example, imagine husband, wife & random villian are down to the last 3 in a VLV final...would you be comfortabl playing a couple in that scenario, with £20k on the line? Even the most honest people would be tempted in that situation (I know I would)!

scouse_red

In Response to Re: MTT: One household, multiple players?:

My view is that i am perfectly comfortable on the same table as two in the same household when they have openly declared there is a connection.  Playing against SolarCarro and Yorkie74, for example, presents no problem at all.  Similarly Kidgirlgy and Kidgrimsby and so on.  I know them as fine, principled, trustworthy etc.  I would like to see more couples "coming out" too. Wouldn't it be good to have a software update that flags in-play those players at the same IP address on every table where this occurs?
Posted by aussie09

Now that is a good idea +1

GaryQQQ

Lea116311 and myself are a couple (I persuaded her to join) , we have mentioned it before on several other threads. We would never play STTs together, sometimes we are in the same MTT but it's very rare to end up on the same table, when we do we are very competitive, each keen to beat the other. Our hand histories vs each other would stand up to any scrutiny. Anybody can look at our game records on Sharkscope, we once played a series of STT HU matches vs each other for fun.

unknown_username

There is probably more colluding going on involving people with different IP Addresses rather than friends or family members with the same IP Address imo.

You don't need to be using the same IP Address to be colluding, you only need to know other players.

You could be at opposite ends of the country or even next door neighbours. It is pretty simple for people to communicate over the internet nowadays if they want to attempt to collude, however, I am confident that sky take these issues very seriously and to be honest its pretty simple to report any concerns you may have regarding players colluding at your tables.

I believe players with the same IP should not be allowed to play on Sit & Go & Cash Tables, however, Multi-table tournaments should not be a real problem. It is very difficult to cash in an MTT due to high variance, never mind the fact that you need to end up on the same table on a regular basis for it to work.

My Son in also a player on sky, he lives at home so plays from the same IP Address, this doesn't mean we play from the same room or can see each others cards, he's 21 and is usually cooped up and playing in his own bedroom.

My Brother is also a player on Sky and I sometimes take my lappy up to his house so we can have a good chinwag and catch up with the latest gossip and play a little poker once or twice a week. This doesn't mean anyone of us are colluding, infact its the very opposite, we are all very competitive, as are the majority of players I know who are friends or relatives.

But yes, there is also a minority out there who will attempt collusion, but this is generally in six seater tournies or cash tables because they would need to pick and choose their tables to make any serious money from colluding on a regular basis. But colluding in these games is much easier for sky and regular players to spot and report.

One day I may teach my wife to play, but does this mean we could never enter a main event on the same night together? It's hardly likely we would get on the same table or cash never mind collude, so I think for this reason it would be very unfair to have a "1 Player - 1 IP Address Rule" But if that were to happen, Peeps could always sign up for more than one internet service and have more than one IP Address to resolve the issue.

Best Advice to Everyone is: If you or anyone else suspects collusion, report it immediately to Customer Services.

Best of Luck at the Tables.
Pokertrev

rawhand

In Response to Re: MTT: One household, multiple players?:

Hi Danny Sian and myself often play the same tournaments and sometimes end up on the same table, in fact we were once heads up in a tournament! I suppose if there were suspect folding patterns or obvious chip dumping I would expect a phone call but it's never happened and we are allowed to register in 2 table SNG's for instance.  As long as Sky know it is deffo 2 different people here is not much they can do until they see evidence of wrong doing! I suppose the only way to stop it is to have a one ip address per player policy but is that really fair? Especially with BT FON where anybody on the BT network can use my router and I can use other BT ones so there is always a way round things. Also people have a sly game at work at lunchtime and that could flag up multiple players from one ip address. I have met some of the Sky fraud guys and they do exist so I suppose they must know what they are looking for! Dave
Posted by SolarCarro

+1 I also have BTFON so one IP address would not be realistic, I also take my lap top to Blackpool or anywhere i go on holiday sad i know just to catch a quick game.

DAVEYZZ

In Response to Re: MTT: One household, multiple players?:

Danny I recently contacted customer support when my son opened an account with Sky because he was wanting me to join the same tourney as him. I was unsure whether or not this was allowed so I asked the question via the live chat. The response I got was "this is not allowed and if you do there will be consequences" so I have avoided entering the same Tours or tables as him even though he is mostly 20 miles away at work (don't tell his boss) when he plays on the lappy. Now it seems this may not be the case as I have seen a number of threads where family or boyfriend/girlfriend not only play in the same tours they are sat in the same room as well. This obviously needs clarification one way or the other to prevent honest players falling foul of sky rules. Ray
Posted by a00rock

it may say so in the terms and conditions(i dont know because i never read them)
but people do play in the same tourny from the same house and sky know about it and even the tv commentators some times remark"x is doing well and so is his wife partner etc....

i have played in the same tourny as my wife and ended on the same table as her(she hasnt played for a couple of years) and i dont see a problem with it,but they could make sure two players with the same ip dont end up on the same table.

fwiw if two players end up on ft like dave and his wife they must of played a great game and wouldnt need to cheat.....

cheers,dave

Amarie

In Response to Re: MTT: One household, multiple players?:

Hi Danny Sian and myself often play the same tournaments and sometimes end up on the same table, in fact we were once heads up in a tournament! I suppose if there were suspect folding patterns or obvious chip dumping I would expect a phone call but it's never happened and we are allowed to register in 2 table SNG's for instance.  As long as Sky know it is deffo 2 different people here is not much they can do until they see evidence of wrong doing! I suppose the only way to stop it is to have a one ip address per player policy but is that really fair? Especially with BT FON where anybody on the BT network can use my router and I can use other BT ones so there is always a way round things. Also people have a sly game at work at lunchtime and that could flag up multiple players from one ip address. I have met some of the Sky fraud guys and they do exist so I suppose they must know what they are looking for! Dave
Posted by SolarCarro

you have met some of the fraud guys? - mmm i wonder why!!

Only joking dave

but like you we are a poker family and i can say that there is definitely no collussion in our house we all want to win, but sadly i usually dont but jamielou does lol

spornybol

my bro is toonarmy01 and very occasionally well play dym low stakes, but what we`ll do is say we are related, and in no way would we collude because i want bragging rites, if we met on same table in an mtt then off course i would say he`s my bro and give other players an insentive to knock him out, so far that`s not happened because the odds on meeting are slim, the one game i won`t try to play him is cash games

SolarCarro

Bloody Donk!! (She was in Kitchen)

SolarCarro	Small blind		25.00	25.00	1445.00
gortay120	Big blind		50.00	75.00	4505.00
	Your hole cards	Q Q
Magicalman	Fold
danmac0147	Call		50.00	125.00	2080.00
Yorkie74	Raise		250.00	375.00	2005.00
SolarCarro	All-in		1445.00	1820.00	0.00
gortay120	Fold
danmac0147	Fold
Yorkie74	Call		1220.00	3040.00	785.00
SolarCarro	Show	Q Q
Yorkie74	Show	A A
Flop
		10 2 9
Turn
		7
River
		6
Yorkie74	Win	Pair of Aces	3040.00

Machka

MSN
Yahoo messenger
Facebook
AIM
Logmein
Teamviewer
etc etc etc

Couples or co-habitors playing are the least of anyone's problems.  I just assume everyone is honest, what could possibly go wrong?

Anyway, as long as they both remember to share their cards with me what's the problem?  <--- This IS a joke.

BlackFish3

Teamviewer is such an awesome piece of free software.

Machka

In Response to Re: MTT: One household, multiple players?:

Teamviewer is such an awesome piece of free software.
Posted by BlackFish3

I know, I'm watching you right now.  Put some trousers on.

yidette9

Personally I never like being in the same MTT as my husband Steve(Budgirl). We share the same IP address but have 2 laptops. On the odd occasion that he hasn't donked his bankroll away, Steve has played in the same tourney as me but makes me sit on the other sofa so he can't see my hole cards!! Even if we ended up on the same table, I would have NO interest whatsoever in his hole cards (blimey, I struggle to know what do do with my own most of the time!).

For me, playing in the same tourney as Steve is a no-no as it just ends up with me checking the lobby after each hand to see which of us has the most chips and that takes the overall objective of being in a MTT away.

It just becomes a last-longer-fest!!!!

Having said that, sometimes we will have a go on the "play tables" Heads Up but when I suggest incorporating strip poker into this .... he very quickly puts on 15 pairs of socks !!!! haha

DAVEYZZ

In Response to Re: MTT: One household, multiple players?:

Personally I never like being in the same MTT as my husband Steve(Budgirl). We share the same IP address but have 2 laptops. On the odd occasion that he hasn't donked his bankroll away, Steve has played in the same tourney as me but makes me sit on the other sofa so he can't see my hole cards!! Even if we ended up on the same table, I would have NO interest whatsoever in his hole cards (blimey, I struggle to know what do do with my own most of the time!). For me, playing in the same tourney as Steve is a no-no as it just ends up with me checking the lobby after each hand to see which of us has the most chips and that takes the overall objective of being in a MTT away. It just becomes a last-longer-fest!!!! Having said that, sometimes we will have a go on the "play tables" Heads Up but when I suggest incorporating strip poker into this .... he very quickly puts on 15 pairs of socks !!!! haha
Posted by yidette9

that is downright cheating!!!!!

if you want an honest player for said game...............................

a00rock

I have no reason to question anyone's integrity with regards to multiple accounts but I am astounded that no one from Sky has commented on this thread. If what some are doing is against the rules then you leave yourselves open to having your account/s frozen and ultimately being banned from the site.

I would love to kick my sons ar se in battle but wont because I'm told its against the rules, call me old fashioned but if I'm told it wrong I do try my best to avoid it. Or is it the old chestnut of 1 rule for one and another for someone else? I feel a little victimised here!

Danny raises a very serious question in this thread 1 which deserves to be cleared up one way or the other, but not just for Danny for all the honest folk that enjoy their poker on this site.
Ray

a00rock

I take it then that this is not against the rules despite my initial contact with customer support. If it was Sky would have formally commented on this thread.
In a way Im glad cos I can now kick my sons backside (I hope) without the threat of being banned or having our accounts frozen. I have copied the OP and my posts on this issue just in case there are any come-backs others who have multi household accounts may wish to do the same just in case!

Good luck at the tables and my sons playing name is Ardicarl1 just so everyone is aware.
Ray