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To check raise or not to check raise?
Quite a lengthy discussion in poker clinic in regard to the check raise and I wanted to open a thread here, mainly to see if my line of thinking really is that out of whack with the majority.
For a variety of reasons that I've already gone into, I very, very rarely checkraise. The only occassions I'l do it is if I'm know my opponent cant stand a raise (i.e I'm weak) or very rarely at the turn or river when I know my opponent will fold to a bet or to pot commit him, but most likely not even then.
I just think if youre trying to extract value the C/R is your worst play, I'll go into more detail if people are interested, but I was just curious as to what you guys though?
For a variety of reasons that I've already gone into, I very, very rarely checkraise. The only occassions I'l do it is if I'm know my opponent cant stand a raise (i.e I'm weak) or very rarely at the turn or river when I know my opponent will fold to a bet or to pot commit him, but most likely not even then.
I just think if youre trying to extract value the C/R is your worst play, I'll go into more detail if people are interested, but I was just curious as to what you guys though?
Comments
But it is not difficult to counter a player who overuses the check raise. Exactly as you could a player who cbets every flop or raises every button.
In tournaments I like to mix up my game and will use it in the right spots. There are players about who will almost automatically bet when a flop is checked to them, and then call your reraise light more out of pride than anything else.
And if the stack sizes are right you can often commit them to a pot, when they have very little.
When sat strong/very strong, why would you look to check raise? In that scenario, with a fairly dry board, I just dont see the sense. Again, will go into more detail if needs be, just want to hear a variety of perspectives, than will put mine.
I recommend it but you have to use it correctly not just constantly
What did you think to that other thread Young gun? There's alot of strategy in there. Wasnt sure If I was getting my point across.
So why check raise? Your basically forcing your opponent to re evaluate the strength of their hand, making good players wary and bad players cautious. If you have the big hand, or the big draw, surely you are much better off leading out, looking for a re raise, allowing you to 3bet, putting more in the pot than the check raise would. Plus your giving yourself the opportunity to pick up the uncontested pots when your opponent holds nothing. Your much more likely to get action on the flop than the turn, so even if its not all in on the flop, you still get to disguise the strength of your hand, getting at least two streets of value or thin value calls/showdown value, even allowing your opponent to make mistakes on later streets
Again, your stack is only going in if your opponent is strong, unless they see you leading out alot, where this will infact stimulate people re raising you weak! Your also never letting freecards come off, so no free runner runner backdoor beats.
we call from SB with like T9cc
Flop K 8 3 rainbow
do we check/fold to the cbet or check/raise.
If your opponest is likely/capable of doing this then they are just as capable of raising any lead out you make, same result, without the ossaciated benefits of the lead out (taking the uncontested pots.
Yes, but only in the given spots I've mentioned if weak. Greenstein - esque, premium strong pre flop hand selection, aggressive post flop,
Yep already went through this bud. Am not talking about check raising a standard c bet OOP. Talking extracting value when OOP sat strong.
Against a serial c-better it's a great spot to check raise on because villain can only call with K+ really unless he knows you are check raising as a bluff.
Against a calling station who only c-bets when they've hit the flop it's an easy check fold.
Against a random sometimes I would check fold, sometimes I would check raise and sometimes I would check call and donk bet turn/ check fold turn or if he checks turn back then maybe take a stab on the river.
Again, just for clarity, I wasnt concerning strategy OOP against a pre flop raiser conscistent C-better. I am focusing on a strong hand flopped, played OOP
So taking away strategy to re pop a guarenteed c-bet on a dry board, they mostly have A high with no connection, flop plays into a callers range.
I am primarily talking of extracting value when sat strong OOP, I do not like the check raise.
But saying that I did do it twice last night playing £2/4.
Had just doubled into the £460 range, then I guy i respect makes it £13 UTG. I flat from the button with AKs. Spewy player makes it £32 from the BB, guy I respect flats I jam, as the 3 better has only around £240. I know the guys game whom I respect fold J's and lower + Apic, 3 better calls w AQ. Not exactly a check raise, but essentially performs the same function.
2nd time. Was getting late, only 4 players stilll playing, decided to play 2 more orbits. Gone to £3/6 £1ante. Serial raiser makes it £20 on my BB, I call J2s. Flop comes pretty dry, but with 2 spades. I check, he bets £27, I make it £55 (pushing him off a standard c-bet, seeing if he pushes, puts money in if spade falls). I make my flush on the turn. Check as though I dont like the turn spade, he checks back. I bet £80 into £153, he says he thinks I'm bluffing the flush and calls very weak.
So have to agree with the earlier statements on the C/R with the draw, as I do play it that way H/U, as will often take the flip dependant on stack size.
Mainly was concerned with the made hand extract value circumstance though. Opponent will draw/float/make a play off the flop, but check, check back to the turn minimises this option, plus the check, check raise strong forces your opponent to reasses their hand.
As sky dave says, it is useful to have the move in your arsenal, But in the described situation above you do not want to send up the flare. If your being selective pre, aggressive post, your lead out should stimulate the exact action your after + being good strategy overall whenhaving no hand no draw.
i thought your main concern against it was that it tells your opponent how super strong you are
Straight draw/flush draw your hoping your Opponent leads out with TP decent kicker, where stack appropriate, as the C/R is most definately prefferable as your putting all but the cream of players in a instant jam/call spot. The more experienced you become and the more sick of variance, an experienced player may well stack TP decent kicker when raised, the raise essentially demanding allin/fold if they feel flipping against those dangerous hands.
Love the needle!, but again long time poker friend/adversary who i respect and like to play against (self made millionaire). Playing last couple of hands, up alot. I raise small to see if he 3 bets or sets me all in. Then I can decide to play my equity @ around 40% for a huge last minute run or fold. If he comes back at me, its one or the other. Leave in solid profit (fold the 3 bet), leave in huge profit (4 bet allin in and hit) or go broke. With three hands left, I give him the momentum, but have the last decision to end the night on my terms
With him calling light, I put him on maybe third pair, but he thought for a long time and said "because of your ability, I call". I thought this was a rubdown initially, but had a meal afterwards and he said I'd been on a bit of a heater and he knew I'd bluff spades with or without there on the river, which I kind of liked
The last issue in regard to super strong bud, I think its only a concern if you actually are super strong which was what I was always getting at. Check raising a standard c-bet weak, great. Check raising with a draw...iffy, i still prefer the lead out. Check raising super strong? Insanity IMO.
BUT:
Same hand same board. Lets say the opponent isnt aggro. Put him on solid skills, solid play. I agree that if you lead, get re raised and flat an alarm way well go off, but I've got to say against a more seasoned player the check raise would be a much louder alarm. The lead out looks weaker, often inducing the re raise from the solid player/more frequently the aggro, especially if its your overall strategy is to lead out much of the time.
But again I agree, that if you do flat the flop three bet it, more often than not, should be a check on the turn to induce the bet intending to drop the hammer on the river when mostly pot committed. How often are you getting paid thin at the turn/river after the flop C/R though?
Again I should have been clearer, obviously your always going to mix your game up. If a persons game never deviates it is very easy to counter. If I give some of my opponents credit for really obseving the table then naturally, your going to switch gears
I think there is alot of strategy to both, using one over the other in certain situations, stack size/player type.
Personally I feel that the lead out is prefferable, mainly because of the associated benefits + no free cards. The lead out gets most players thinking how can they take the pot away these days, rather than fold to one bet. Juices up the pot, stimulates action, no one draws for free, looks weaker than the check raise and check call. Run the risk of check back, but even worse, fold to the check raise.
Really enjoying the other points of view though. May experiment more with the check raise tonight (live), but have to be honest I havent really used it much in the last few years. Dont get me wrong its there in the right spot when needed. Mostly dont use it though as I tend to play most pots in position, or have 3bet/4bet pre. So 3/4 betting OOP pre, to check the flop isnt going to happen often anyhow.