mathmatically should i be calling the turn here

leon621

right andnei the innitial raiser is a good player and spots danger but has been quite lucky winning on the river here and there and of course he is holding more than me so has the chips to completely stack me. i know zaffy will bet it all on top pair or a big draw. Elmakem bets very strong when ever he believes he is ahead, but had rotten luck on the table.  I have suited connectors so i play the raise and get a flush draw, there is a big raise on the flop and i call. The turn gives me a straight draw and a good one at first look but then i notice the J and think that a Q is well within any of these players hands meaning im chasing a 5 and also hoping that Zaffy is not chasing a higher flush draw than me. Both players shove it all in and i fold even though i can afford the extra £4 loss.   thoughts please

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
leon621	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£19.43
zaffy	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£4.66
wongaboy	Sit out
	Your hole cards	6 7
AndNeiCha	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£25.04
Buzzzzzzzi	Fold
elmakem	Raise		£0.50	£0.95	£5.51
leon621	Call		£0.45	£1.40	£18.98
zaffy	Call		£0.40	£1.80	£4.26
AndNeiCha	Call		£0.20	£2.00	£24.84
Flop
		A 9 J
leon621	Check
zaffy	Check
AndNeiCha	Bet		£0.70	£2.70	£24.14
elmakem	Raise		£1.40	£4.10	£4.11
leon621	Call		£1.40	£5.50	£17.58
zaffy	Call		£1.40	£6.90	£2.86
AndNeiCha	Call		£0.70	£7.60	£23.44
Turn
		8
leon621	Check
zaffy	All-in		£2.86	£10.46	£0.00
AndNeiCha	Fold
elmakem	All-in		£4.11	£14.57	£0.00
leon621	Fold
elmakem	Unmatched bet		£1.25	£13.32	£1.25
zaffy	Show
elmakem	Show
River

DOHHHHHHH

Yes !!!!

In fact, I have no idea mathamatically, I dunno how to work it out -  but I'd never fold this. 

I'd fold pre though, as the guy who 3 bets is a short stack.

leon621

In Response to Re: mathmatically should i be calling the turn here:

Yes !!!! In fact, I have no idea mathamatically, I dunno how to work it out -  but I'd never fold this.  I'd fold pre though, as the guy who 3 bets is a short stack.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

the way i was reading this hand was Zaffy might have AX or after the shove UTG im more inclined to think Qh Xh as this is a move he does which means i feel as if i need a 5 of anything bar hearts. I also feel as if elmakem has a set so i believe a 9 or 8 hearts kills me all the same. Obviously its alot to think about in a few seconds and im not sure i can read players as well as you can like.

DOHHHHHHH

Well I don't even think about what they have tbh, I just look at my hand, and see I've got 12 outs, maybe 15, and call it off.

But, this is what happens when you play these kind of hands against short stacks, I really don't like your call pre flop. 

If you learn anything from this thread, it should be that playing hands like 67, 89, TJs against short stacks, especially in 3bet pot is not a good idea - and undersdtand WHY. 

N1CK

fold pre your not closing the action in a 3bp, the same on flop

AMYBR

I think the way you play it, you have to turn the heat up on the flop if your calling the re raise, rather than, counting on hitting.  Letting them know your serious with the big 3 bet may have pushed one out, or got you to the river fot free.

leon621

i did read to much into this hand and i should have called the flop as i would of hit. But the tread really says fold pre against a short stack, which is fine and i take it against a larger stack its fine to call this then

DeucesLive

Basically, hand values equalise as stacks get larger. If you or the player you're up against is short stacked (sub 50bbs) then premium hands become paramount, because such a large % of your stack is in preflop, and probably on the flop- it's quite easy to be allin by the flop. As a result, playing speculative hands just isn't going to be profitable enough- more often than not, you're not hitting the flop hard enough and have to fold. On those rare occasions you do hit the flop hard, your opponent will always be coming along with you, and chances are all you have to back yourself up is a strong draw- so you're still not guaranteed to win. And on the occasions you do win, it's only going to be 50bbs or less- nowhere near enough.

If you're all around 100bbs, then calling with 67s there is kind of ok with the implied odds, but still could go either way- nothing wrong with folding. If you're all 200bbs deep, then folding 67s is a mistake IMO. You can easily afford to have a look at the flop, and if it's favourable- put some pressure on. You have more than enough weight in your stack now to push people around, and if you do hit the flop seriously hard- others have enough to pay you off properly.

As played though, I call that turn I think-your straight draw is probably live, and there's enough in the pot to take the risk they both have raggy aces, or even a set or whatever- if both your draws are live, happy days. 

I agree with pushing the flop harder once you're in there- put in a sizeable reraise to £4.50 or so. If matey with the large stack comes along, you want to be wary- but ultimately, it's just the shorties to worry about. They may fold (doubtful) but if they both come along, your flush draw is getting decent odds and you see both turn and river.

Talon

  As far as the maths side of your question is concerned the simple answer is no.Although you do have a lot of cards you can potentially hit to win the pot you in fact have a grand total of zero clean outs. This is because your straight could already be beaten and someone could be drawing to a higher flush. As to how many outs you truly have it is all on the reads you have on these opponents especially as you have a hand where you know you are behind to any holding that is interested in this pot.

  For what its worth i believe this hand is an instafold preflop out of position against a 3-bet. These type of hands play best multiway but not when it is costing you too much to see the flop and also position is always preferable with any hand.

thejudge10

i think you have to let it go on the flop,the only way u can win this is bet big the flop,but ur up against a raise and a re raise pre flop,chances are some one has hit hard,if yiou bet for your draw,u only have a 7 high flush at best,your only getting called by a hand your behoind to,or a better flush draw.

the flop is bet then raised,so its now time to fold.
forget about the turn,at the flop your not gettin the odds to call,unless you hav the nut flush,which u havent,so fold here.
at the turn you have  an up and down str8  and the flush draw, but basically no clean outs.
so fold on the flop.