Fold or shove?

CrazyBen23

Happynige's flat call pre and on flop looks like a set to me and the shove looks like a flush draw.. so i figure at best not that far ahead..no reads, what would you do?

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancesimsimSmall blind £0.25£0.25£22.66ACESAAAABig blind £0.50£0.75£80.14 Your hole cardsQQ   DarkforceRaise £1.50£2.25£22.21HAPPYNIGE4Call £1.50£3.75£66.75CrazyBen23Raise £5.50£9.25£58.45raffles65Fold    simsimCall £5.25£14.50£17.41ACESAAAAFold    DarkforceFold    HAPPYNIGE4Call £4.00£18.50£62.75Flop  1068   simsimAll-in £17.41£35.91£0.00HAPPYNIGE4Call £17.41£53.32£45.34CrazyBen23

DOHHHHHHH

Eazyyyyyyyyyy shove.

DeucesLive

simsim's involved. Shovex1million.

SadLoner69

In Response to Fold or shove?:

Happynige's flat call pre and on flop looks like a set to me and the shove looks like a flush draw.. so i figure at best not that far ahead..no reads, what would you do? Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance simsim Small blind   £0.25 £0.25 £22.66 ACESAAAA Big blind   £0.50 £0.75 £80.14   Your hole cards Q Q       Darkforce Raise   £1.50 £2.25 £22.21 HAPPYNIGE4 Call   £1.50 £3.75 £66.75 CrazyBen23 Raise   £5.50 £9.25 £58.45 raffles65 Fold         simsim Call   £5.25 £14.50 £17.41 ACESAAAA Fold         Darkforce Fold         HAPPYNIGE4 Call   £4.00 £18.50 £62.75 Flop     10 6 8       simsim All-in   £17.41 £35.91 £0.00 HAPPYNIGE4 Call   £17.41 £53.32 £45.34 CrazyBen23
Posted by CrazyBen23

It seems from the previous post that this is player-dependant. Against ant reasonable opponent I would fold.

scrumdown

against sim sim shove alday and every day

SILEEK

Why all the focus on simsim? He's shoved and been called, so the other player
is at least, if not more, of a concern??
To say shove all day because simsim is involved appears ludicrous?

scrumdown

have u ever played him silleek if not then not ludicrous guy shove with any 2 garbage

SILEEK

In Response to Re: Fold or shove?:

have u ever played him silleek if not then not ludicrous guy shove with any 2 garbage
Posted by scrumdown

Yeah, I get the simsim reckless bit, and that's fine.
My point tho, is that simsim has shoved and another player
has already called, so the decision to call is no longer just about
playing simsim, it's about the other caller now. Yes? No?

DOHHHHHHH

The other guy has more flush draws and tens than anything else. 

He's not got aces or kings. He knows his top pair (10x) is good against simsim most of the time, and doesn't want to fold.

I'm not worried about much at all here, just shove it you're good more times than not. 

DeucesLive

that's the point, simsim shoving is the equivalent of 90% of players checking- irrelevant. That means what happens behind him is immaterial- happynige calling =/= great strength. Sure, he *might* have a set, but he equally might have top pair or a flush draw. Once simsim gets involved, hand strengths go down quite dramatically.

I reshove, and lol when simsim turns over 56, and cry when happynige turns over 88.

scrumdown

well put dohhhhhhh exactly what i was thinking most nige got top pair top kicker

scotty77

shove shove shove so easy considering who the villains are.

CrazyBen23

Okay thanks for the feedback guys, was rly readless, with reads i would of been calling and would of been right too lol nit alert! physocology came into my descion aswell i think because i've lost with queens so many times... simsim had j9 for an open ender and happynige had 87, ended up blanking out and a pair of eights winnning, what i will say tho this topic tho has made me learn that reads are rly important

SadLoner69

Guys, lets break this hand down properly. A lot of the replies in this thread are along the lines of 'Simsim is a fish. Easy call'. The hand is a lot more complex than that though.

Simsim: Obviously from this guy is a fish. However, I dont believe that he plays 100% of hands in a 3bet pot and pushes 90% of hands post flop. A player who played that way would lose his money within 5 mins every time he sat down. Clearly his range is wide, but surely not as much as people are suggesting. Even if he played 50% of hands pre and pushed 50% post, this affects the hand greatly.

Happynige. His range here is pretty strong. He has called a 3b oop (albeit with a fish in the pot). He didnt reraise the original raiser so we should be able to discount AA/KK/AK, but his most likely holding is pps, scs, connectors, broadways and Ax suited.

When this flop comes down, its simplistic to say that Simsim pushes wide so Happy plays wide. He still has to worry about Crazy behind him as the preflop 3 bettor. So out of the range we put him on originally, we shouldnt expect him to continue with any of the hands that missed the flop. That leaves his likely holdings as fds, sds, pair+guttys, straights and trips. This is the classic case or marginally ahead or way behind.

Im with Sileek, without reads this is an easy fold. With reads it may or may not be ok as youre getting great odds, but the reality is you're an underdog vs Nige's range and Sim probably doesnt play as wide as some people suggest.

Just my two pence!

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Fold or shove?:

Guys, lets break this hand down properly. A lot of the replies in this thread are along the lines of 'Simsim is a fish. Easy call'. The hand is a lot more complex than that though. Simsim: Obviously from this guy is a fish. However, I believe that he plays 100% of hands in a 3bet pot and pushes 100% of hands post flop. A player who played that way would lose his money within 5 mins every time he sat down. Clearly his range is wide, but surely not as much as people are suggesting. Even if he played 50% of hands pre and pushed 50% post, this affects the hand greatly. Happynige. His range here is pretty strong. He has called a 3b oop (albeit with a fish in the pot). He didnt reraise the original raiser so we should be able to discount AA/KK/AK, but his most likely holding is pps, scs, connectors, broadways and Ax suited. When this flop comes down, its simplistic to say that Simsim pushes wide so Happy plays wide. He still has to worry about Crazy behind him as the preflop 3 bettor. So out of the range we put him on originally, we shouldnt expect him to continue with any of the hands that missed the flop. That leaves his likely holdings as fds, sds, pair+guttys, straights and trips. This is the classic case or marginally ahead or way behind. Im with Sileek, without reads this is an easy fold. With reads it may or may not be ok as youre getting great odds, but the reality is you're an underdog vs Nige's range and Sim probably doesnt play as wide as some people suggest. Just my two pence!
Posted by SadLoner69

fyp.

DeucesLive

Sadloner, normally you're correct. However in this instance, you really don't understand just who you're dealing with- simsim is a one off. You have great players, good players, average players, bad players, terrible players, novice fish who've never played holdem in their life, then simsim.

If it was just me and simsim in that pot and I held 62, I'd call him. Sim actually probably plays wider than people suggest if anything. 

Sure, happynige's involvement DOES complicate things, but his call would be predicated on that fact too- he wants to be involved, and believes his call will slow down the action behind him- and unless crazy has a really legit part of this board, he won't continue. That's probably why he flat calls rather than shoves. He's also got redraws available to him should he end up having to make a decision.

Can understand the fold, but I think dropping queens here is definitely too tight.

SadLoner69

In Response to Re: Fold or shove?:

Sadloner, normally you're correct. However in this instance, you really don't understand just who you're dealing with- simsim is a one off. You have great players, good players, average players, bad players, terrible players, novice fish who've never played holdem in their life, then simsim. If it was just me and simsim in that pot and I held 62, I'd call him. Sim actually probably plays wider than people suggest if anything.  Sure, happynige's involvement DOES complicate things, but his call would be predicated on that fact too- he wants to be involved, and believes his call will slow down the action behind him- and unless crazy has a really legit part of this board, he won't continue. That's probably why he flat calls rather than shoves. He's also got redraws available to him should he end up having to make a decision. Can understand the fold, but I think dropping queens here is definitely too tight.
Posted by DeucesLive

Hi DL, thanks for the constructive response.

It seems that I underestime simsims range, though I'd love to actually see this in action. He also did turn up with a pretty reasonable hand (post flop not pre) but I dont want to be results orientated.

If we combine the two ranges, ie Simsim is truly playing and pushing 100% and Happy plays the range I suggested in my previous post, then we end up with equity of about 42% (roughly the same as Happy). Obviously due to odds this would make this a clear call but we'd expect to lose more often than we win.

donkeyplop

In Response to Re: Fold or shove?:

In Response to Re: Fold or shove? : Hi DL, thanks for the constructive response. It seems that I underestime simsims range, though I'd love to actually see this in action. He also did turn up with a pretty reasonable hand (post flop not pre) but I dont want to be results orientated. If we combine the two ranges, ie Simsim is truly playing and pushing 100% and Happy plays the range I suggested in my previous post, then we end up with equity of about 42% (roughly the same as Happy). Obviously due to odds this would make this a clear call but we'd expect to lose more often than we win.
Posted by SadLoner69

It really is a thing of beauty!

CrazyBen23

In Response to Re: Fold or shove?:

In Response to Re: Fold or shove? : though I'd love to actually see this in action.
Posted by SadLoner69

Ask and you shall recieve! I just ended up giving happynige too much respect, call me a nit but i know im not making that call pre or on flop with a pre flop 3 better behind me lol

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancesimsimSmall blind £0.25£0.25£22.66ACESAAAABig blind £0.50£0.75£80.14 Your hole cardsQQ   DarkforceRaise £1.50£2.25£22.21HAPPYNIGE4Call £1.50£3.75£66.75CrazyBen23Raise £5.50£9.25£58.45raffles65Fold    simsimCall £5.25£14.50£17.41ACESAAAAFold    DarkforceFold    HAPPYNIGE4Call £4.00£18.50£62.75Flop  1068   simsimAll-in £17.41£35.91£0.00HAPPYNIGE4Call £17.41£53.32£45.34CrazyBen23Fold    simsimShowJ9   HAPPYNIGE4Show87   Turn  10   River  4   HAPPYNIGE4WinTwo Pairs, 10s and 8s£51.52 £96.86PrevClose windowNext

SadLoner69

In Response to Re: Fold or shove?:

In Response to Re: Fold or shove? : Ask and you shall recieve! I just ended up giving happynige too much respect, call me a nit but i know im not making that call pre or on flop with a pre flop 3 better behind me lol Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance simsim Small blind   £0.25 £0.25 £22.66 ACESAAAA Big blind   £0.50 £0.75 £80.14   Your hole cards Q Q       Darkforce Raise   £1.50 £2.25 £22.21 HAPPYNIGE4 Call   £1.50 £3.75 £66.75 CrazyBen23 Raise   £5.50 £9.25 £58.45 raffles65 Fold         simsim Call   £5.25 £14.50 £17.41 ACESAAAA Fold         Darkforce Fold         HAPPYNIGE4 Call   £4.00 £18.50 £62.75 Flop     10 6 8       simsim All-in   £17.41 £35.91 £0.00 HAPPYNIGE4 Call   £17.41 £53.32 £45.34 CrazyBen23 Fold         simsim Show J 9       HAPPYNIGE4 Show 8 7       Turn     10       River     4       HAPPYNIGE4 Win Two Pairs, 10s and 8s £51.52   £96.86 Prev Close window Next
Posted by CrazyBen23

I meant I'd like to see Simsim play. I cant get my head around someone playing and pushing 100%. I had no reason to disbelieve what you said originally.

Agree with you that I was surprised Nige was involved with that hand too. That has to be that absolute bottom of his range.

CrazyBen23

In Response to Re: Fold or shove?:

In Response to Re: Fold or shove? : I meant I'd like to see Simsim play. I cant get my head around someone playing and pushing 100%. I had no reason to disbelieve what you said originally. Agree with you that I was surprised Nige was involved with that hand too. That has to be that absolute bottom of his range.
Posted by SadLoner69

Ah right okay haha and yeah!

DeucesLive

well ok saying he plays and pushes 100% is probably a slight exaggeration, but not by much. More accurate is to say when simsim plays, he plays with 100% of his stack every time- once he's put in chips he has no fold button. And his starting range is... speculative, to say the least. That doesn't mean he necessarily shoves allin every time he gets 7 high, he does fold preflop. Sometimes.

rancid

I have Queens, no 4 bet pre just stick it in.

If they are beating you then o well, i think it would be far too nitty to fold here especialy with a silly jam which screams draw. The call looks weak aswell so shove it in and maybe he folds his draw and your heads up.

grantorino

why is everyone shoving instead of flatting??  I prob shove, but I certainly consider flatting