How to play Jacks?

iBLUFF

right this was late stages on thursday nights bh was about 28-30 left at this stage pick up JJ in sb with verry argo player raising on button .my question is should i call , fold, or shove? Thank You .p.s bb was playing verry tight trying to ladder

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
iBLUFF	Small blind		1000.00	1000.00	40362.50
sarandy	Big blind		2000.00	3000.00	8085.00
	Your hole cards	J J
ajs82	Fold
Jc0251	Fold
dtm75	Fold
PedagogBen	Raise		6000.00	9000.00	99657.00
iBLUFF	????

AcidMan27

Has he raised the button every orbit for a while ?

If so i'd be shoving here.

Plus if you're shoving you don't have to worry about not having position anymore.

iBLUFF

In Response to Re: How to play Jacks?:

Has he raised the button every orbit for a while ? If so i'd be shoving here. Plus if you're shoving you don't have to worry about not having position anymore.
Posted by AcidMan27

he had been rasing alot , this was one the first times he raised on the button though

p.s he just took out a player the hand before i belive..

pps. he had kings when he knocked the player out

DeucesLive

shove

easy decision, if he turns over QQ+ shrug and hope to bink. Deffo reshove here to a button raise.

If he's super aggro there's only ever one decision here IMO.

iBLUFF

In Response to Re: How to play Jacks?:

shove easy decision, if he turns over QQ+ shrug and hope to bink. Deffo reshove here to a button raise. If he's super aggro there's only ever one decision here IMO.
Posted by DeucesLive

Thanks deuces , but dont you think theres any time you flat this and see what comes on the flop?

unknown_username

Its an easy shove imo. You play a higher level than me iBluff but if the flop comes with an overcard or two then what is plan B. You only have 20BB so i dont like the call. JJ at this stage is massive.

iBLUFF

In Response to Re: How to play Jacks?:

Its an easy shove imo. You play a higher level than me iBluff but if the flop comes with an overcard or two then what is plan B. You only have 20BB so i dont like the call. JJ at this stage is massive.
Posted by DrSharp

yeh thats the problem i think in this situation as i know 100% hes gonna c bet any flop, but i have to say to myself  if it comes with a overcard im just going to go with it..ill post rest of hand in about a hour

unknown_username

In Response to Re: How to play Jacks?:

In Response to Re: How to play Jacks? : yeh thats the problem i think in this situation as i know 100% hes gonna c bet any flop, but i have to say to myself  if it comes with a overcard im just going to go with it..ill post rest of hand in about a hour
Posted by iBLUFF

Why not go with it pre then? By calling are you not giving him a chance to see a flop? By shoving, you either take the pot or he calls and you should be ahead. You are real unlucky if he wakes up with a bigger PP. If he has two overcards then you are racing, anything else and you want him to call. Plus it smacks him back in his place. :-)

iBLUFF

In Response to Re: How to play Jacks?:

In Response to Re: How to play Jacks? : Why not go with it pre then? By calling are you not giving him a chance to see a flop? By shoving, you either take the pot or he calls and you should be ahead. You are real unlucky if he wakes up with a bigger PP. If he has two overcards then you are racing, anything else and you want him to call. Plus it smacks him back in his place. :-)
Posted by DrSharp

Fair enough well put, this is how the hand played out.. i flated pre flop AQ7 check check, turn brick he bet 7k i called (worse call ever by me) river A he bet 12k i called i muck JJ he shows AA for quads

iBLUFF

p.s the river call left me with about 14k back i think , i done well all tourney and one hand i make 2 awfully loose calls and it costs me my tourney

unknown_username

thats my kinda luck. Just one of those things. I still think shoving pre is the way to go, just unlucky on this occasion. Would you play it the same way again?

iBLUFF

In Response to Re: How to play Jacks?:

thats my kinda luck. Just one of those things. I still think shoving pre is the way to go, just unlucky on this occasion. Would you play it the same way again?
Posted by DrSharp

no lol i wouldnt i know my three mistakes in the hand the flat pre i should of shoved, the call on turn i should of folded and same with the river

Red_King

Just get it in pre, and see what happens.

Had this situation twice in past few days, both times just on the bubble,
shoved both times and got done by rag aces.

Variance says it's my turn next, lol.

iBLUFF

In Response to Re: How to play Jacks?:

Just get it in pre, and see what happens. Had this situation twice in past few days, both times just on the bubble, shoved both times and got done by rag aces. Variance says it's my turn next, lol.
Posted by Red_King

yeh thanks think shoving pre is the best decision here

andybuck

i have learnt over the years that JJ is my nightmare hand never seem to win and prob lost more with this hand than any that includes cash dym mtt,s sng ,SO IMO OPINION FOLD FOLD FOLD,,LOL

YOUNG_GUN

insta-shove similar to my sky roller hand

grantorino

shove pre, fwiw I would shove a huge range pre in this spot

you can flat if you are willing to stick it in on m,ost flops

DeucesLive

flatting is super risky because any Q/K/A hits his preflop range massively, and what are you then going to do? You figure he very likely has at least one, maybe two of the above cards but you have no idea which ones, you're out of position with no way of getting any information before you bet, and if you check you're opening yourself up to be outplayed when he c-bets.

Unless the board comes down with a jack you're not gonna like it, so I just jam it in preflop. Folding is a tad on the tight side here.

iBLUFF

In Response to Re: How to play Jacks?:

flatting is super risky because any Q/K/A hits his preflop range massively, and what are you then going to do? You figure he very likely has at least one, maybe two of the above cards but you have no idea which ones, you're out of position with no way of getting any information before you bet, and if you check you're opening yourself up to be outplayed when he c-bets. Unless the board comes down with a jack you're not gonna like it, so I just jam it in preflop. Folding is a tad on the tight side here.
Posted by DeucesLive

he plays 67. 89 suited the same though, as i said hes a verry loose player , but yeh shoulda shoved pre but still would of ran into quads whatever hapend :P

GaryQQQ

Shove or fold only. 

Calling is awful, you're not deep enough to set mine.

There are good arguments either way. I shove myself, if he folds that's fine, we pick up a useful pot and he might think twice before taking us on in future hands. If I'm racing against 2 overcards then so be it, you need to win some crucial races to win tournaments. If he turns over an overpair it's a cooler, even then you have a 1 in 5 chance of sucking out. 

grantorino

In Response to Re: How to play Jacks?:

flatting is super risky because any Q/K/A hits his preflop range massively, and what are you then going to do? You figure he very likely has at least one, maybe two of the above cards but you have no idea which ones, you're out of position with no way of getting any information before you bet, and if you check you're opening yourself up to be outplayed when he c-bets. Unless the board comes down with a jack you're not gonna like it, so I just jam it in preflop. Folding is a tad on the tight side here.
Posted by DeucesLive

yeah flatting pre is risky, I prefer shoving, but if he raising really wide its an option as he'll fold lots to a shove and will cbet air a lot on flop. If we do it we have to be comitted to jamming all but the most ugly of boards

GREGHOGG

easy reship pre

never ever ever flat call

grantorino

In Response to Re: How to play Jacks?:

easy reship pre never ever ever flat call
Posted by GREGHOGG

why not?

DeucesLive

sure, he plays 67 too. Flop comes AQrag. Do you REALLY want to take the chance and fire in the dark? Are you that confident he plays garbage that when you check and he standard c-bets, you're prepared to jam over the top?

You're setting yourself up for a scenario where if you commit all your chips, you're drawing to a 2 outer if called, and if you don't make a play at it, you have to give up. Take away his positional advantage and jam pre- turns out you were screwed against AA, but way more often he has that garbage like 67 and has to fold. If you were in position- now I can understand calling more, because you have more information- both the flop texture, and your opponents response. But when you're this shallow there just isn't enough play to start getting fancy and calling/floating/doing anything- just get it in preflop and be done with it. It's a double or bust spot.

iBLUFF

In Response to Re: How to play Jacks?:

sure, he plays 67 too. Flop comes AQrag. Do you REALLY want to take the chance and fire in the dark? Are you that confident he plays garbage that when you check and he standard c-bets, you're prepared to jam over the top? You're setting yourself up for a scenario where if you commit all your chips, you're drawing to a 2 outer if called, and if you don't make a play at it, you have to give up. Take away his positional advantage and jam pre- turns out you were screwed against AA, but way more often he has that garbage like 67 and has to fold. If you were in position- now I can understand calling more, because you have more information- both the flop texture, and your opponents response. But when you're this shallow there just isn't enough play to start getting fancy and calling/floating/doing anything- just get it in preflop and be done with it. It's a double or bust spot.
Posted by DeucesLive

he has 100k i had 30k do you think he folds with KQ etc in this situation ?as even though im short stacked dont really want a race but is that the best im going to get with my stack?

grantorino

Ok, first I'll say I prefer shoving pre

Calling is riskier, but we can be outdrawn if we get it in pre also. Equally if flop comes 743  hes prob not folding 7x etc which he often folds to a shove pre. If I did call Im intending crai on flop unless board is really ugly( or shoving turn if it checks thru). To do this you need to know he opens wide and cbets a lot. Shoving pre folds out most worse hands and we are prob only a slight favourite against his calling range

Its a non standard line sure, and its slightly fps but I think it may have merit against certain opponents

DeucesLive

a race is great, sure. He probably doesn't fold with KQ, and you go off to the races. a) you bust and get nothing. b) you double up and go on to have a great chance at winning.

People need to embrace the race and realise that it's the best way of truly doing well. I understand the theory of 'why do I want to race when I think I'm better than the field?' but that's simply not the case. You are better off taking 50/50 races in every tournament you get, almost every chance you get, since all it takes is one run where you win 3/4 in a row to get a MASSIVE score by winning, or even just FTing a big tournament.

You're better off winning primo once than mincashing twenty times. And the only way you win it is by taking your races. The earlier you do it, the bigger your chip stack, then instead of YOU being the wrong side of a 30k/100k, where you're out if you lose, you're instead the other side and if you win- your stack's even bigger and you continue bullying, if you lose- you still have a plenty playable stack.

Tournaments are about having enough skill to do well when the luck goes with you. If you're a rubbish player, you're only going to win a tournament if you have an inordinate amount of skill (and it does happen- look at Darvin Moon finishing 2nd in WSOP). If you have skill though, you only need a reasonable amount of luck to get through. But to think you can get through without luck or having to rely on luck at some point is crazy.

The_Don90

I think by calling OOP you have no control of the hand. Simple shove imo.

YOUNG_GUN

dont get technical donald, it dont suit

The_Don90

In Response to Re: How to play Jacks?:

dont get technical donald, it dont suit
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

what its the quickest, simplest and therefore easiest way of saying what i mean.

YOUNG_GUN

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz?