Too aggro for cash??

YOUNG_GUN

Ok on this flop i have open ender + Back door flush, put villain on either top pair or overpair

Is this really bad how i played it? lately i havent been raising draws as much and i would do same with set/overpair here so balances my range

funnyguy	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£11.42
K007	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£45.45
	Your hole cards	4 3
simonnatur	Fold
YOUNG_GUN	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£15.90
Dreamer121	Fold
funnyguy	Call		£0.50	£1.40	£10.92
K007	Call		£0.40	£1.80	£45.05
Flop
		9 5 6
funnyguy	Bet		£2.80	£4.60	£8.12
K007	Fold
YOUNG_GUN	Raise		£6.50	£11.10	£9.40
funnyguy	All-in		£8.12	£19.22	£0.00
YOUNG_GUN	Call		£4.42	£23.64	£4.98
funnyguy	Show	9 10
YOUNG_GUN	Show	4 3
Turn
		J
River
		K
funnyguy	Win	Pair of 9s	£22.45		£22.45

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grantorino

Dont raise a draw against someone with top pair or an overpair unless you know they can fold them. Calling is a much better play generally in this situation imo (although with that sizing I prob just fold), unless you know he likes to lead light or can fold hands like the one he has

I'm also not a big fan of the open pre with a guy like this in the blinds, especially not when you are only 80BB deep youself (always top up) and one of blinds is a half stack

leon621

In Response to Re: Too aggro for cash??:

Dont raise a draw against someone with top pair or an overpair unless you know they can fold them. Calling is a much better play generally in this situation imo (although with that sizing I prob just fold), unless you know he likes to lead light or can fold hands like the one he has I'm also not a big fan of the open pre with a guy like this in the blinds, especially not when you are only 80BB deep youself (always top up) and one of blinds is a half stack
Posted by grantorino

i dont like this, i dont mind a riase pre with suited connectors as long as they are 45+. The flop comes and you only really have 8 outs and believe you oppo could have an overpair, if this is the case then you know you have a good chance of stacking the guy if you hit anyway so a flat call is what you should have done and the same on the turn. Personally i fold the flop myself though.

N1CK

when this guy leads that much into u on flop he is never folding so if you want to gamble you may as well shove the lot in on flop and expect a snap call 100% and hope for the best,

Talon

  Firts things first i like your raise preflop. If you are going to play a hand in an unopened pot you should be coming in for a raise you get callers out of the blinds which is exactly what you want because it then gives you position on them.

  The flop leaves you with a dilemma although you have an oesd a made straight is very possible on that board with 78 being a hand that people will call raises with so your draw could very well be dead. The donk lead is an overpot sized bet which shows great strength and an unlikelihood of folding to a raise with about a third of his stack now invested in the pot.

   So you have the choice either fold and lose a small pot or continue in the hand where you are at best a 2 to 1 dog.Ok so lets look at the 3 options.
  1) fold. for me this is the best available option minimal loss with a bad hand.
  2) Call  you are getting nearly 2 to 1 on your money to make this call which if your draws are live then you are getting about the right price especially with implied odds. But on the other hand you know you will be facing another bet on the turn so in fact you only really have 1 card to hit your draw before being asked another question.conclusion bit gambly but not a very bad option.
 3) Raise  With the strength shown by the donk bet you know any raise will end up with the opponent all-in so you will be ending up getting all your money in with no hand and a draw that may or may not be live.For me throwing my money in the pot as a big underdog and hoping to get lucky is not a good option so this is a definate no for me.



   So for my twopenneth worth this is a snap fold on the flop.You will only have lost the original raise. But what you have learned from this hand is the guys calling range preflop and what type of hands he will go to war with on the flop.Use this information to make a lot of money off of him on later sessions.

Dudeskin8

Fold flop for me aswell, raise/shoving seems to gambly as he ain't folding.

grantorino

Talon, I think your post flop analysis is spot on but I have a few questions about pre

1. Do we not want everyone to fold when we open 43s? Obv if we do get callers its better if we have position

2. Do you really think opening 43s from CO is standard at 20NL, especially 80BB deep with a shortstack in SB? I understand we can sometimes do it, but this looks like a situation where mucking them is best to me

The_Don90

Talon your a genius. You spell out my thoughts and explain it properly i salute you sir.

Although i will state i do like the aggression in cash poker young gun, and i dont think youve been to aggressive if this is used in the right situation against the correct opponent. I hope you made a note on the opponent in question and that will allow you not to do this in future. Although what worries me here is you suspect an overpair, how many players are good enough to fold Tens/Jacks here? Not many i suspect.

Talon

  Grantorino in response to your questions.


  1) No we do not want people to fold. This is cash and blind stealing is a pointless and silly excercise so we do want caller(s).This then gives us the opportunity to take down a pot worth winning.In mid to latter tourny stages then blind stealing is important but not in cash.

 2) If we decide to play a hand then raising as the first to enter a pot should always be standard whether it be with AA or 43s.There is avery good argument for snap folding pre as well which i could not possibly disagree with but you cant sit around and wait for big hands all the time and raising with a wide range is good for keeping opponents on their toes. This is also the sort of hand that i love raising with because when you do hit the board hard noone will see it because they cant believe you would raise with such a hand.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Too aggro for cash??:

  Grantorino in response to your questions.   1) No we do not want people to fold. This is cash and blind stealing is a pointless and silly excercise so we do want caller(s).This then gives us the opportunity to take down a pot worth winning.In mid to latter tourny stages then blind stealing is important but not in cash.  2) If we decide to play a hand then raising as the first to enter a pot should always be standard whether it be with AA or 43s.There is avery good argument for snap folding pre as well which i could not possibly disagree with but you cant sit around and wait for big hands all the time and raising with a wide range is good for keeping opponents on their toes. This is also the sort of hand that i love raising with because when you do hit the board hard noone will see it because they cant believe you would raise with such a hand.
Posted by Talon

1. While I agree blind stealing isnt very important in cash, given most good players winrate/100 hands, stealing a few blinds here and there would have a significant effect on it. Also I'm not sure our expected profit for the hand is bigger when we are called than the 1.5BB we gain when everyone folds

2. Obv limping here would be superbad. I understand the implied odds hands like this can have, but these  are severely reduced when we are playing with max 80BB sometimes 55BB effective stacks. Also the big strength of these hands is you can play them fast when you flop a draw and make better medium strong hands fold, if they have a really strong hand you still have some decent equity. This strength is much reduced against bad players who wont fold 2nd pair etc. I like raising sometimes pre, but against  standard unknown 20NL players with these stacks its a fold imo

N1CK

i would fold pre for the reasons GT gives, i dont really like 34soot at these levels anyway and your always chasing the idiot end of everything, options on flop 1 fold, 2 shove 3 call imo

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Too aggro for cash??:

Dont raise a draw against someone with top pair or an overpair unless you know they can fold them. Calling is a much better play generally in this situation imo (although with that sizing I prob just fold), unless you know he likes to lead light or can fold hands like the one he has I'm also not a big fan of the open pre with a guy like this in the blinds, especially not when you are only 80BB deep youself (always top up) and one of blinds is a half stack
Posted by grantorino

This.

Opening 34s and then getting it in on a draw here is similar to opening A2 then stacking off on an A high flop.

It feels like an injustice that you open junk, and have to fold when you hit one of the best flops you could hit, but his sizing makes it impossible to continue, don't get married to your hand.

oesfd and obv it's different, jam 200xbb if u want 

N1CK

In Response to Re: Too aggro for cash??:

In Response to Re: Too aggro for cash?? : This. Opening 34s and then getting it in on a draw here is similar to opening A2 then stacking off on an A high flop. It feels like an injustice that you open junk, and have to fold when you hit one of the best flops you could hit, but his sizing makes it impossible to continue, don't get married to your hand. oesfd and obv it's different, jam 200xbb if u want 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

if think if you put that kind of money in on the flop you have have to see two cards so fold or ship it

N1CK

and i think this hand sums it up why playing 34 vs these clowns is not that great, just play hands that dominate their range q 10, k 10 etc etc etc its not hard to win their money when they stack off with 9 10 lol

CrazyBen23

Pre flop is fine, the correct play on flop is to fold because hes obv not folding and your not getting the right odds, but if you feel like gambling throw the money in

ajs4385

I like it, but I would just shove flop.

YOUNG_GUN

Yep i have noted player now, think one of my flaws in cash is i get a bit too aggro sometimes both with draws and made hands/nuts aswell. I still ended up a BI & half overall on the 3 tables and this hand lost me 1 Buy in if i hit then i would of been up at least a buy in on each table... this was not in consideration at the time just shows the fine line. Dunno why i didnt shove flop shud have really?? or folded

I like how Talon/Colin has put it and agree best way is to just fold flop facing such a big bet

Re: top up i was on all 3 tables asap but i think i may have left this table for 10 mins accidentally lucky i didnt make a hand so didnt really cost me too much..

LOL_RAISE

preflop is spew
when we open here with 43s we do want them to fold
we have almost 0 fold equity when he lead overbets
blind stealing in cash games is very important

LOL_RAISE

In Response to Too aggro for cash??:

lately i havent been raising draws as much and i would do same with set/overpair here so balances my range
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

having a balanced range in this spot is really bad

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: Too aggro for cash??:

preflop is spew when we open here with 43s we do want them to fold we have almost 0 fold equity when he lead overbets blind stealing in cash games is very important
Posted by LOL_RAISE

1) I agree i dont care if he folds, i dont want a call just using position
2) so would you just fold flop i assume?
3) i agree obviously not the most important but good to pick up so you get free rounds :P
4) Why is it bad to balance range in this spot? because we have no f/e? please explain further

LOL_RAISE

you want a balanced range so people cannot exploit you.

when was the last time do you think a 50bb random player tried to exploit you?


you probably need to think about having a balanced range against less than 10 people on all of skypoker