nl100 HU deep 4bet pot, villains value range???

LOL_RAISE

12 tabling so havent noticed anything out of order by villain, he did 5bet me once BvB to 50x out of 250bb stacks so i think he is fairly competant. 6max table broke and we carried on to try and restart game, nothing worthy noting so far has happened. i think preflop & flop are pretty standard turn onwards is where things start to get interesting.  what do you guys think villains value range is here?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
V	Small blind		£0.50	£0.50	£279.52
LOL_RAISE	Big blind		£1.00	£1.50	£245.50
	Your hole cards	J J
V	Raise		£2.50	£4.00	£277.02
LOL_RAISE	Raise		£10.00	£14.00	£235.50
V	Raise		£27.00	£41.00	£250.02
LOL_RAISE	Call		£19.00	£60.00	£216.50
Flop
		6 3 Q
LOL_RAISE	Check
V	Bet		£38.00	£98.00	£212.02
LOL_RAISE	Call		£38.00	£136.00	£178.50
Turn
		8
LOL_RAISE	Check
V	Bet		£59.00	£195.00	£153.02
LOL_RAISE	Call		£59.00	£254.00	£119.50
River
		A
LOL_RAISE	Check
V	All-in		£153.02	£407.02	£0.00

Glenelg

  what do you guys think villains value range is here?

Flush to A, QQ, AA?

YOUNG_GUN

Isn't that like the worst card ever? even if he is floating you he could have an Ace or even spades

i have to fold looks sccary for jacks

DOHHHHHHH

QQQ and AAA.

Possibly AQ but wouldn't expect someone to 4b that pre this deep. 

If his value range is really small, like above, 2 or 3 hands, does that mean it's more likely he's bluffing so you're more tempted to call?

Could be a range merge with QK

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YG he bet flop turn and river, for him to be floating we would have to be the ones doing the betting.

The ace is a bad card for his value hands on the flop and turn, KQ, QJ, KK etc, so when he shoves the river hes polarisied to the nuts or nothing right? AAA/QQQ or nothing righhhht?????

rancid

10's turned into a bluff on the river :S

Other than that your beat

QQQ

N1CK

jacks are good unless he has aq

grantorino

Flatting JJ oop in a 4bet flop makes life really  tough, I understand why u do it though

I like flop and turn, I prob call most river cards, but this 1 sucks, idk can he really bluff u giving u those odds, he surely checks behind mid strength hands I prob fold

N1CK

snap call

grantorino

nick, any chance of some reasoning? I'm mildly drunk so make it really clear

N1CK

whats his value range KQ AQ QQ kk AA cant see many flushes ops hand is pretty face up, odd turn bet and shoves river does it make sense?

its bluffy or its ment to look bluffy so does he think 10s/jj calls, like he bets the streets small to keep them hands in then shoves when a scary card hits the end

not sure if this makes any sense im tired

LOL_RAISE

i didnt realise his turn bet was so small tbh, not sure how that changed my process.

obv the river looks like a terrible card for me, flush hits and an overcard but doesnt that make it the super nut best  bluffing river card in the entire deck?
on the other hand i think when i get to the river i can  have AQ a ton and because my range is pretty narrow from preflop its likely to make up a good portion of my range

zing

pm me his name?

grantorino

His sizing is small, but is this not ok as its still easy for him to get stacks in by river

Its a pretty good bluffing card but there is so little behind Im not sure he would bluff here. I dont have much idea of hu 4betting ranges, but I would think his value range is mostly ahead of JJ and his bluffing range should have lots of Ax

DeucesLive

I think it's sick you're even considering a call there with jacks, you're behind to so much

very difficult without history, does he bet all 3 streets with set of Qs without letting up? Does he jam river after you've called 2 streets and an ace hits bringing the flush in too, unless he has one or the other?

I'm struggling to see a hand he 4bets pre and then triple barrels that you have beat. If he was bluffing with AK, he got there? KJ? Very weak 4bet surely? Is he inclined to 4bet light?

He could be playing 9's or 10's, those are pretty much the only hands in his range I can see you beating. He has respect for your ability, and knows if he checks that river he can't call a shove with 9s/10s- and you're capable of making that shove without the goods too, or with a light hand. He also knows that he could be folding out better hands (KQ, for example).

I don't see enough hands in his range you beat for me, I think even if you were good on this occasion you're surely beat even if he's turned KQ/KK into a bluff of sorts on the river. Would love to know your thought process on this, and perhaps anything on villain if someone knows about his game.

And I'm kinda with GT regarding betsizing- isn't the best aim of betsizing to be able to get stacks in by river? If you're both insanely deep, what you don't want is to be minbetting and missing out on value, but if you're both fairly shallow going into the flop, you can size it a bit smaller to try and price your opponent in, perhaps?

I get the feeling you made the call and were right, which is hella sick, but I still think he has you beat here more than he's bluffing unless you have a read on him.

N1CK

In Response to Re: nl100 HU deep 4bet pot, villains value range???:

i didnt realise his turn bet was so small tbh, not sure how that changed my process. obv the river looks like a terrible card for me, flush hits and an overcard but doesnt that make it the super nut best  bluffing river card in the entire deck? on the other hand i think when i get to the river i can  have AQ a ton and because my range is pretty narrow from preflop its likely to make up a good portion of my range
Posted by LOL_RAISE

yeah i did over look this

N1CK

so its AA QQ and bluffs?

LOL_RAISE

idk i was asking the question!

at the time i didnt know whether he would valuebet AK or not due to me being able to have AQ quite often.

rancid

10's as a bluff
or Q's for value
or even jacks
who funny would that be

Love to know the outcome, probs set of 3's or 6's :S

zing

there are good justifications for either play but as you don't fold easy i guess you called

AMYBR

Only read opening post, only simple answer I can give is nothing your beating.  He's called you through the streets so the very worst hand he can have is 45, but you'd hope the 4 bet pre eliminates it.

He could easily use the river to turn his hand into a bluff (88 99 10's after passive route up to river)  but chances are he's still bluffing with the best hand.

Pots big enough to justify the jam on river after you check, but hard to put him on a weaker hand than you with calling through the streets, well a hand that doesnt get there on the river.

Its a fold from me.  But the small seemingly scared bets leading up to river does hint that he's trying to get value, but doesnt like the Q, so the 8's through 10's would be grim.

Kind of depends on how aggro he perceives you as being.  I think your were likely behind the whole way though, what looks like it may be a scared bet with 8's through 10's could easily be Q's K's.