I feel dirty and ashamed

grantorino

No reads on villain, he hasnt done anything out of line, only at table 5 mins though

Flame away here, this has to be really bad, and feel free to offer alternative lines

I'll post my own "reasoning" after a few replies

tatohead	Small blind		£0.15	£0.15	£75.05
grantorino	Big blind		£0.30	£0.45	£78.44
	Your hole cards	Q Q
AHiOYeah	Fold
DEFOE007	Fold
v	Raise		£0.90	£1.35	£57.42
eric1406	Call		£0.90	£2.25	£18.02
tatohead	Fold
grantorino	Raise		£3.60	£5.85	£74.84
v	Raise		£10.80	£16.65	£46.62
eric1406	Fold
grantorino	Fold

The_Don90

people dont usually 4-bet worse than queens. But readless i think we have to stack. I had a hand with a well known player yesterday where the action was similar and i almost turned into station mode. Ill see if i can find it.

Although i dont critise the fold.

DOHHHHHHH

There's not many @ 30nl who will 4b worse than Queens. 

Dudeskin8

Do you mind losing almost 200 bb's to see if he has AA/KK ? Personally I can't see how he can have anything else.

JJ - probably just flats pre, AK - maybe if he's super aggro and doesn't mind racing for 2 BI's.

Overall I think the fold is good imo.

unknown_username

Looks like a bigger pocket pair to me. Could have AK at a push if he is loose enough. Good fold imo. If he had more behind him then it might be worth the flat on the flop and see if you hit a set but he doesnt have the money to make it a positive move.

grantorino

so 3b/f the 3rd nuts is ok ?

Im definitely not comfortable stacking off pre this deep, am I better of flatting the open, or flatting the 4bet and playing poker. fwiw I shove 100BB deep

I havent played much on this site, but 4betting seems very uncommon, do people ever 4bet bluff at 20/30NL? DO they even 3bet bluff? Do they flat 3bets enough and 4 bet rarely enough to make 3b/f optimal this deep?

DeucesLive

3 b/f at this limit is very acceptable IMO- people flat 3bets a lot with random hands they open with, but if they 4bet it's almost always AA/KK at 30nl. Down at micros it could be anything, at 20NL it's possible they are 4betting with worse than QQ, but 30NL it's rare. Higher up you'll probably see more squeeze plays.

The way this has played out, I like a fold. Unless the board comes down Q high, you're not liking anything- and even if comes down say KQ or AQ, you could still easily be behind the way this has played. Flatting is bad, shoving is probably worse. He doesn't have enough back for you to have the implied odds for setmining.

Don't mind how you played this at all. The thing I hate about queens is, and the thing everyone gets hung up on, is it's the '3rd best hand in holdem'. Yes, it is- but when your opponents range has been narrowed down to 4 hands, of which one is so unlikely because you're holding 2 of them, your equity in the hand plummets. You're 50% against the least likely of the holdings, and 20% against the two most likely. They look pretty, but just don't stack up well once you're in a 4bet pot at 30NL.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: I feel dirty and ashamed:

so 3b/f the 3rd nuts is ok ? Im definitely not comfortable stacking off pre this deep, am I better of flatting the open, or flatting the 4bet and playing poker. fwiw I shove 100BB deep I havent played much on this site, but 4betting seems very uncommon, do people ever 4bet bluff at 20/30NL? DO they even 3bet bluff? Do they flat 3bets enough and 4 bet rarely enough to make 3b/f optimal this deep?
Posted by grantorino

This made my head spin.

But to answer your other questions, it all depends on who the player is. But generally, no they don't ever 4b bluff. And rarely 3b bluff but it depends who it is. 

Most 3bets from non-regs r normally like min raises, so I've opened the button to 1.20 w/A8 and they make it 2.40 total.

Does my fffin head in, I don't even know what to do in that position with that kinda hand, I guess I just have to fold it, and flat with junk hands to try and make 2p/big draw or whatever.

There are some v decent players (I don't mean like really good, but good for the level) and all the rest r terrible. There's not much inbetween.

LOL_RAISE

In Response to Re: I feel dirty and ashamed:

so 3b/f the 3rd nuts is ok ? Im definitely not comfortable stacking off pre this deep, am I better of flatting the open, or flatting the 4bet and playing poker. fwiw I shove 100BB deep I havent played much on this site, but 4betting seems very uncommon, do people ever 4bet bluff at 20/30NL? DO they even 3bet bluff? Do they flat 3bets enough and 4 bet rarely enough to make 3b/f optimal this deep?
Posted by grantorino

this is a good question, and id say most people will fall into this category, though it kinda makes you think your raising for information!!

DeucesLive

Well, you're raising for information and value- if they 4bet, you're pretty certain they have AA/KK and aren't bluffing, so fold. If they flat, you can normally remove those hands from their range, and instead put them on 2 paint cards/random aces/pairs/suited connectors, and go to the flop both ahead and with a rough idea of what they have.

I think unless you raise with the stone cold nuts or going allin, you're always raising for information aren't you? You can be raising for both value and information.

grantorino

In Response to Re: I feel dirty and ashamed:

Well, you're raising for information and value- if they 4bet, you're pretty certain they have AA/KK and aren't bluffing, so fold. If they flat, you can normally remove those hands from their range, and instead put them on 2 paint cards/random aces/pairs/suited connectors, and go to the flop both ahead and with a rough idea of what they have. I think unless you raise with the stone cold nuts or going allin, you're always raising for information aren't you? You can be raising for both value and information.
Posted by DeucesLive

thats nearly every possible hand unless they are really spewy!!!. So what info do we gain? I wouldnt remove AA,KK either, and I doubt random villains calling range is generally that wide

If 3bet fold is the right line, its because they flat with a wide range of worse hands and only 4bet KK+.

imo when you raise its for value or as a bluff, betting usually gains you some info but it would be a rare situation that betting to gain info would be good

DeucesLive

It's minimal info, but we've gained info that our villain probably doesn't like their hand much, and has now accepted we have the stronger hand preflop. Unless they improve fairly solidly on the flop, a good bet will get them off.

That's assuming our villain isn't purposely underplaying their hand by flatting, which is possible- but less likely at NL30. Ordinarily, their response to 3bets is to 4bet with aces and kings, and seeing as those are the only two hands you're really scared of preflop with queens, you could argue eliminating those from their range is a very worthwhile piece of information.

I agree with you about raising- it's either to get worse hands to call, or better hands to fold. There's really no other reason to raise in my opinion- if you're on a draw it disguises your hand a bit, blah blah- but you still want a fold with a draw since you don't have a made hand. The info comes alongside the bluff/raise category nicely though.

rancid

i think raising for info in this spot with QQ is ok, your basically narrowing his range AA/KK Or bluff
He probably more likely to flat your 3 bet with AK rarther than 4 betting -- depends on player but most would than open themselfs up to a 5 bet/5 bet shove

fold is ok

raising is better than calling and a 10 high flop comes

Smitalos

If you're gunna 3b fold QQ here to a 4b you should just flat. 3b folding here in this spot is very bad imo.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: I feel dirty and ashamed:

If you're gunna 3b fold QQ here to a 4b you should just flat. 3b folding here in this spot is very bad imo.
Posted by Smitalos

Not when players call 3bets so wide.

And only 4bet QQ+ and sometimes AK.

grantorino

I think we have to be pretty sure that the vast majority call wide and 4bet very narrow to make 3b/f correct. Smitalos has a point, and I kinda agree 3b/f feels very bad here it feels like turning QQ into a bluff

DOHHHHHHH

Well when they open AT, AJ, AQ, call 3 bets, and proceed to give 3 streets w/ top pair top kicker......

When they open pocket pairs 22-77, call 3bets, and get attatched and turn them into bluffs post flop.....

When they peel 3 bets with 88-JJ and stack off if they flop an overpair......

When they only ever 4b QQ+.....

Add all those together and surely it makes 3b/folding QQ a good idea.

I would 4bet/stack off against some opponents btw - but as the name is xxx'd off I gotta treat him a typical unknown passive nit.