Folding KK pre and KK and AA on an 8 high flop (last night's Mastercash)?

bandini

I didnt understand James's flat initially then flats again on the flop. weird line to take and i would love to see his views. It was mentioned that maurice was a bit of a nit but it didn't look like it too me, browndog was not impreesed with his fold. Very weird the hands last night, the first hand KK V KK V JJ i'd assume james put lolufold on Aces so not the worst fold ever. The next hand was weird AA v KK v Q8 suited i think, i thought for sure 1 of james or browndog would go broke especially as James didnt really test the others and show the strength of his hand flatting 2 standard raises then gets out the way?

bandini

Yes, I'm talking about last night's amazing Mastercash hands.

I'm certainly not going to criticise any of the players involved but what does everyone think?

James's pre-flop folding of KK I can almost understand due to the action beforehand but still not sure I could do it.

The other hand had an 8 high innoccous flop and, after a re-raise from a flush-draw, James folded KK, after not 3-betting it pre, and Brownndog folded AA. I know you shouldn't go bust with one pair but, again, I really don't think I could do it.

Was it because of the levels being played (£5/£10)? It looked like they were playing with scared money and I'm fairly certain that's not the case.

Like I say, I'm not criticising them, and even feel a bit cheeky for questioning them, but I'd be fascinated to hear what others thought.

DOHHHHHHH

It was great seeing them both look so silly )) Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

They were both obv just sat waiting for a spot to get Pegs money.

Once he bust, the game broke straight away. 

rancid

I kinda liked peg trying to bluff LOLUFOLD off the jack high flop/turn trips hand
Then just gives up and calls when the 9 hits on the end

Nothing worse than trying to rep the hand your oppenant has lol

James folding KK, sure he thought Maurice had AA. Bet he was livid when he still called with JJ :S

Like DOh says they really don't like playing each other, think they would rarther play v other people for easier money. I guess if you are new to them stakes i guess the best thing to do would be to play like a nit and trap and just showdown some silly hands so you look a bit loose
That level though is like another universe

grantorino

anywhere I can see the hands?

folding KK pre at 5/10 against capable aggro opponents sounds very unusual to me, no matter what the action

rancid

In Response to x:

anywhere I can see the hands? folding KK pre at 5/10 against capable aggro opponents sounds very unusual to me, no matter what the action
Posted by grantorino

like
raise £40 lol raise A9S
3bet £110 lolufold KK
4 bet £240 james KK
5 bet £390 maurice JJ
lol raise FOLD
LOLUFOLD SHOVE
JAMES FOLD
MAURICE CALL

something like that

LOL_RAISE

i open 40
lolufold 3bet 100
james 4bet 215
maurice cold5bets to 350
lolufold shoves 100bb

i think KK fold is good, lolufold really should only have KK,AA there unless maurice is a nutter

jakally

In Response to Re: Folding KK pre and KK and AA on an 8 high flop (last night's Mastercash)?:

I didnt understand James's flat initially then flats again on the flop. weird line to take and i would love to see his views. 
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

If we always play a certain hand the same way, good players can exploit this very easily.

Also, when james flats he is doing 3 things , 

1) getting the potential 'weaker players' behind him into the pot. 

2) inducing a raise behind, when there are aggro players who will do this light

3) under repping his hand early on, to get more value on later streets

On the flop, James and Lewis are clearly looking at the new guy's range and weighting it heavily towards a set. (He never has a big pair here, and is unlikely to be raising that spot with 99 / TT.

Lewis's decision is more difficult as he has James to act behind him, and James could definitely flat the c-bet with a set, which is well in his range given his call PF.

The strange dynamic is the fact that Maurice is an unknown (to me anyway).

When an unknown plonks full buy in on more than one table, you pretty much have to treat them as a solid reg until proved otherwise.

When a solid reg raises that spot, into two v.good players, it is going to be a set a high percentage of the time.

grantorino

ok, well thats action to make you think alright. How deep are maurice and james?

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Folding KK pre and KK and AA on an 8 high flop (last night's Mastercash)?:

In Response to Re: Folding KK pre and KK and AA on an 8 high flop (last night's Mastercash)? : If we always play a certain hand the same way, good players can exploit this very easily. Also, when james flats he is doing 3 things ,  1) getting the potential 'weaker players' behind him into the pot.  2) inducing a raise behind, when there are aggro players who will do this light 3) under repping his hand early on, to get more value on later streets On the flop, James and Lewis are clearly looking at the new guy's range and weighting it heavily towards a set. (He never has a big pair here, and is unlikely to be raising that spot with 99 / TT. Lewis's decision is more difficult as he has James to act behind him, and James could definitely flat the c-bet with a set, which is well in his range given his call PF. The strange dynamic is the fact that Maurice is an unknown (to me anyway). When an unknown plonks full buy in on more than one table, you pretty much have to treat them as a solid reg until proved otherwise. When a solid reg raises that spot, into two v.good players, it is going to be a set a high percentage of the time.
Posted by jakally

Does he really wanna go to the flop 3/4 ways when he has KK in this spot? Not saying you don't want the guy behind to come along with Q8s, but you'd much rather him come along for £110 than £30 ?

The higher stakes games are normally always v aggressive with lots of light 3/4 bets??? Looked like the perfect spot to 3b KK, as he actually had a hand?? BD will surely 4bet w/ worse hands and then he gets it all in. Happy days.

jakally

In Response to Re: Folding KK pre and KK and AA on an 8 high flop (last night's Mastercash)?:

Not saying you don't want the guy behind to come along with Q8s, but you'd much rather him come along for £110 than £30 ? 
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Yeah, obv, but once you 3 bet an EP raise, they are never cold calling with Q8s.

Also, if James 3 bets here, BD pretty much knows he is never light.... no sense to 3b light to iso a good player, and exclude less skilled players from the pot.... therefore he is rarely going to be 4 betting weaker hands (maybe QQ or AK).

It's a potentially high variance way of playing, but ok sometimes if you are adept post flop (as James is), and prepared to lay it down in certain situations.

rancid

In Response to Re: Folding KK pre and KK and AA on an 8 high flop (last night's Mastercash)?:

ok, well thats action to make you think alright. How deep are maurice and james?
Posted by grantorino

about the same, think all players were around 100BB.

rancid

In Response to Re: Folding KK pre and KK and AA on an 8 high flop (last night's Mastercash)?:

It's a potentially high variance way of playingPosted by jakally

+1
But I guess you want to get paid with these hands menaing sometimes you have to change the way you play these hands,
Whenever I am playing AA,KK multi way I never feel comfortable effectivley slow playing v 3/4 opponents.
Especially due to being outdrawn so many times it started to make me feel like jamming every hand :S
Only when at the end i get the monies in & isolate v one action player and I am good at showdown do I sigh with relief
It's vey intresting that even at the giddy height of £5-10 do they employ the same tactic with the same high variance of play.
I guess it's deciding what line to take, sometimes going aggro and other times being passive.

Just goes to show how these top players do mix up there game

rusty762

In Response to Re: Folding KK pre and KK and AA on an 8 high flop (last night's Mastercash)?: I believe Maurices is a top player (Tikay mentioned that he was new to Sky, but had taken down, or gone deep in a recent EPT), and I maybe think LJL and BD knew this too, and hence a little cautious respect to the post flop pot raise 

AMYBR

In Response to Re: x:

In Response to x : like raise £40 lol raise A9S 3bet £110 lolufold KK 4 bet £240 james KK 5 bet £390 maurice JJ lol raise FOLD LOLUFOLD SHOVE JAMES FOLD MAURICE CALL something like that
Posted by rancid

I'm insta folding K's in this spot.

beeasyonme

In Response to Re: Folding KK pre and KK and AA on an 8 high flop (last night's Mastercash)?:

In Response to Re: Folding KK pre and KK and AA on an 8 high flop (last night's Mastercash)? : I believe Maurices is a top player (Tikay mentioned that he was new to Sky, but had taken down, or gone deep in a recent EPT), and I maybe think LJL and BD knew this too, and hence a little cautious respect to the post flop pot raise 
Posted by rusty762

i hope this is not the reason LJL was cautious as his advice to players is to not get intimidated by big names as there just a person holding two cards the same as you.

DOHHHHHHH

Makes the flat pre even more strange ??

YOUNG_GUN

I guess the people involved dont want to discuss it in the clinic

bandini

In Response to Re: Folding KK pre and KK and AA on an 8 high flop (last night's Mastercash)?:

I guess the people involved dont want to discuss it in the clinic
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

Entirely their decision. Don't blame them really.

Did just notice that this thread was discussed on the Poker Clinic with Paul Jackson though.

And he thought James's folding of the KKs in the 1st one was totally correct.

And thought Lewis's folding of AAs was totally correct in the second one.

Only dubious one, according to PJ, was James's folding of KK in the 2nd one.

Interesting and has made me think. He's a smart cookie that PJ.