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200nl - set facing river shove.

edited May 2011 in The Poker Clinic
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
dantb10 Small blind   £1.00 £1.00 £197.00
offshoot Big blind   £2.00 £3.00 £198.00
  Your hole cards
  • 7
  • 7
     
CharlieF29 Fold        
mrpoate3 Call   £2.00 £5.00 £447.96
villain Raise   £8.00 £13.00 £218.30
dantb10 Fold        
offshoot Call   £6.00 £19.00 £192.00
mrpoate3 Fold        
Flop
   
  • 6
  • 2
  • 10
     
offshoot Check        
villain Check        
Turn
   
  • 7
     
offshoot Check        
villain Bet   £12.00 £31.00 £206.30
offshoot Raise   £36.00 £67.00 £156.00
villain Call   £24.00 £91.00 £182.30
River
   
  • J
     
offshoot Bet   £68.00 £159.00 £88.00
villain All-in   £182.30 £341.30 £0.00
offshoot?

Comments

  • edited May 2011
    I think ive played with villain occasionally but not really enough to have solid reads. In my mind hes a fish(on the slightly more aggressive side) and someone who i want to play a lot of pots with. I wish i had some idea of how much he cbets/whether he would check the flop with a set, but i dont. Just in general i would say players who raise pre are probably less inclined to check sets on dry flops imo. So on the river what hands could be in his range? Anything i beat? TJ? It sure looks a lot like 89 doesnt it? Can i put 22 and 66 in his range?
  • edited May 2011
    Would 10s cbet there? Think thats possible. Jacks unlikley as they would cbet the flop i think. 89 is possible. Although going by your basic read we have 4th to nuts and the way is played i think we beat more than the villians range here.
  • edited May 2011
    er, ouch.

    I'm with you on ruling out 22+66, that's unlikely to say the least. I also don't THINK he checks an overpair to the board? Obviously this is readless, but if you raise pre with jacks in position, this is exactly the board you want to be betting out on to stop yourself seeing an ace or king on the turn- if he doesn't bet this with jacks it's a very, very poor move. 89 still makes sense here, as does 77.

    Starts betting on turn, and calls a raise too. He's not bluffing here (or really shouldn't be) because of the river action, so that card must have helped him- 77 and 89 both still make sense, although there's an outside possibility he picked up a flush draw (AKs?). Still doesn't make that much sense to me since he should probably be betting that flop with 2 overs.

    My instinct definitely leans towards 89 because of how much interest he's shown, but 77 is a possibility. With how aggro you've been though, I think 3rd set on that board is actually a very vulnerable hand, your action came when the board straightened- so if he's not holding that hand himself, I don't know why he raises the river.
  • edited May 2011
    very easy decision for me I'm just not good enougth to ever fold a set here. If anything it looks more like TT/TJ , Got to assume JJ c-bets so im ruling that out. 22 and 66 makes sence if hes raising enougth pre, "OMG sh** i hit a set err err better check". TJ also is in his range, checks for pot control, assumes its ahead on river and shoves for value. 89 i cbet for sure but thats me
  • edited May 2011
    I call, at first when i read this was screaming 89 but the more i look at it i reckon he has an overpair QQ +. I dont like the turn card here but i think we have to call in the long run. i think either he's just made a set or he has overpair to the board i dont see why someone with the nuts would shove here. It's not a bluff my gut says call and fist pump.

    Hands i put him on here is JJ, QQ, KK, AA, so if its accurate so it makes it an easier call imo. if he's outsetted us just ul
  • edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: 200nl - set facing river shove.:
    I call, at first when i read this was screaming 89 but the more i look at it i reckon he has an overpair QQ +. I dont like the turn card here but i think we have to call in the long run. i think either he's just made a set or he has overpair to the board i dont see why someone with the nuts would shove here. It's not a bluff my gut says call and fist pump. Hands i put him on here is JJ, QQ, KK, AA, so if its accurate so it makes it an easier call imo. if he's outsetted us just ul
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN

    It's only just over a min raise, O.P only has 88 behind.

    I think it's an easy call, it's not even that much more.
  • edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: 200nl - set facing river shove.:
    In Response to Re: 200nl - set facing river shove. : It's only just over a min raise, O.P only has 88 behind. I think it's an easy call, it's not even that much more.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Yeah i was going to mention we have gone to far anyway so it is an easy call, pretty confident he's good here
  • edited May 2011
    I don't think he has tj cos he rly should of cbet that, think its close to whether he has a higher set, 89 or a lower set, more likely to be behind but with the odds your getting i'd call, not allowed to fold sets
  • edited May 2011

    Giving villian a range of TT,66,22,JTs and 98s we win 53.48% of the time,  giving the price we are getting it should be a snap call with fist pump.



    ---
       3,618,923  games     1.056 secs     3,427,010  games/sec

    Board: 6s 2h Td 7s Jc
    Dead: 

     equity  win  tie        pots won  pots tied 
    Hand 0:  53.349%   53.48%  00.00%         1935311          0.00   { 7d7h }
    Hand 1:  46.651%   46.77%  00.00%         1692531          0.00   { TT, 66, 22, JTs, 98s }


    --- (source PokerStove)

    not to mention villian turns up with some weird stuff now and again like AJ and 2 spades

  • edited May 2011
    havent read all replies but:

    bet turn yourself

    you will see 89  a bit here but I think its a snapcall with those odds 
  • edited May 2011
    Insta call based on strength of hand and having over 50% of your stack in.  Villain could just as easily be holding a major pocket pair as higher set, which really is the only hand you should be concerned about.  But I wouldnt be surprised if he holds 10's or J's as I think he flats most other hands on river.
  • edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: 200nl - set facing river shove.:
    I think ive played with villain occasionally but not really enough to have solid reads. In my mind hes a fish(on the slightly more aggressive side) and someone who i want to play a lot of pots with. I wish i had some idea of how much he cbets/whether he would check the flop with a set, but i dont. Just in general i would say players who raise pre are probably less inclined to check sets on dry flops imo. So on the river what hands could be in his range? Anything i beat? TJ? It sure looks a lot like 89 doesnt it? Can i put 22 and 66 in his range?
    Posted by offshoot
    Is he a fish that opens a lot of pots or just calls a lot of pots This would help putting together hand combo's, Do we have any idea of a raising range. I reckon without this info it's a call, hoever I do agree it really does look like 98.
  • edited May 2011
    If there was ever a flop to slowplay a set on it's that one Shoot.  Without thorough reads on the player I think you can definitely say he can check behind with a set here.

    How he plays the turn and river is very interesting.  While you're reads on him are not complete you appear to have played him enough for him to have reads on you.  I think he can flat your raise on the turn with a wide value range knowing you can bet both ends of your range on the river.  The question is how big is his value shove range on the river and how big does he think your V-Bet range on the river is?  You've pretty much pot committed yourself on the river so if he thinks TP/GK and weak 2 pair hands are in your v-bet range he can easily have JT and be shoving for value.  Likewise lower sets as well as higher sets and the straight.  With how much you've put in I'm sigh calling to be honest as played.  The fact we've made the set on the turn and the fact sets are so well hidden has disguised our hand strength enough to make this a +ev call IMO.

    Of course if we throw in the actual ability of the player this can now be anything between a fistpump call and a snap fold, even with the pot odds offered.
  • edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: 200nl - set facing river shove.:
    If there was ever a flop to slowplay a set on it's that one Shoot.  Without thorough reads on the player I think you can definitely say he can check behind with a set here. How he plays the turn and river is very interesting.  While you're reads on him are not complete you appear to have played him enough for him to have reads on you.  I think he can flat your raise on the turn with a wide value range knowing you can bet both ends of your range on the river.  The question is how big is his value shove range on the river and how big does he think your V-Bet range on the river is?  You've pretty much pot committed yourself on the river so if he thinks TP/GK and weak 2 pair hands are in your v-bet range he can easily have JT and be shoving for value.  Likewise lower sets as well as higher sets and the straight.  With how much you've put in I'm sigh calling to be honest as played.  The fact we've made the set on the turn and the fact sets are so well hidden has disguised our hand strength enough to make this a +ev call IMO. Of course if we throw in the actual ability of the player this can now be anything between a fistpump call and a snap fold, even with the pot odds offered.
    Posted by TommyD
    What he said
    I just can't fold here myself, not convinced either way that I am beaten or not the way hand was played out.
    So I just say sod it and call
  • edited May 2011
    raise on the button often means any two - if he's a fish and abit spewy he's probz just made some weak 2-pair on the river, 6J suited !!! 
  • edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: 200nl - set facing river shove.:
    I call, at first when i read this was screaming 89 but the more i look at it i reckon he has an overpair QQ +. I dont like the turn card here but i think we have to call in the long run. i think either he's just made a set or he has overpair to the board i dont see why someone with the nuts would shove here. It's not a bluff my gut says call and fist pump. Hands i put him on here is JJ, QQ, KK, AA, so if its accurate so it makes it an easier call imo. if he's outsetted us just ul
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    i dont think he checks an overpair on the flop I lso doont think someone who checks the flop with a overpair would then shove over my river bet on that board.
  • edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: 200nl - set facing river shove.:
    In Response to Re: 200nl - set facing river shove. : It's only just over a min raise, O.P only has 88 behind. I think it's an easy call, it's not even that much more.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    44 big blinds, nearly half a stack, by my rough calculations making two of these calls and being wrong would be losing nearly a buy in, and losing buyins suck. Just saying "well its not much more, i have a set, i call" is kinda like giving up, theres always room for improvement.
  • edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: 200nl - set facing river shove.:
    Giving villian a range of TT,66,22,JTs and 98s we win 53.48% of the time,  giving the price we are getting it should be a snap call with fist pump. ---    3,618,923  games     1.056 secs     3,427,010  games/sec Board: 6s 2h Td 7s Jc Dead:   equity  win  tie        pots won  pots tied  Hand 0:  53.349%   53.48%  00.00%         1935311          0.00   { 7d7h } Hand 1:  46.651%   46.77%  00.00%         1692531          0.00   { TT, 66, 22, JTs, 98s } --- (source PokerStove) not to mention villian turns up with some weird stuff now and again like AJ and 2 spades
    Posted by TWRAMYEP
    Villain can have 89o aswell. I also think TJ is unlikely.
  • edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: 200nl - set facing river shove.:
    In Response to Re: 200nl - set facing river shove. : Is he a fish that opens a lot of pots or just calls a lot of pots This would help putting together hand combo's, Do we have any idea of a raising range. I reckon without this info it's a call, hoever I do agree it really does look like 98.
    Posted by yuranASSet
    i think otb hes raising almost anything.
  • edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: 200nl - set facing river shove.:
    In Response to Re: 200nl - set facing river shove. : i think otb hes raising almost anything.
    Posted by offshoot
    So could be 89, set 10's, set j's thats hurting you right now

    what are you beating overpair, 2 pr, set 3's & 6's, bluff


    Screams 89 like you say, but also just as possible AA/KK


    You have to call because you can't be certain right ?
     Or if your not certain do you fold ?
  • edited May 2011

    I cant fold this set here without a stronger read on the player.

    If hes got 89 or a better set, its just a cooler.
     
    You have mentioned that you think he might be an agro fish and for this reason, i think we must call, because there might be weird bluffs in his range in addition to the other hands mentioned that you beat.

  • edited May 2011
    I guess what this boils down to is if your river decision should have been B/F, B/C or C/C (leaving out C/F as this is just too weak).

    It's a toughie because he checks back a ton of hands we can get value out of so C/C looks like the worst option on that basis, while B/F drops load of dead money down the toilet if he does shove, and when he does will B/C be beating anything?

    It probably is B/F > B/C > C/C in general but with that price against someone we label a fish is just so tempting to call.  As I stated in my original reply I think it's a sigh call but is pretty darn close.
  • edited May 2011
    i generally agree with that Tommy. Its a situation where when he shoved im thinking im beat a lot of the time but the reasoning is always "well he can show up with TJ or weirdly played hands here, its not that much to call", but in retrospect, if hes aggro hes not checking TJ on a Ten hi flop and people just arent check calling the turn and shoving over a river bet with weaker hands that often. At the time i was pretty confident he had 89 but i was wrong! He had TT obv.
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