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Shoving medium pairs from the BB

DannyMcsDannyMcs
edited May 2011 in The Poker Clinic
Late on in an MTT but not under any real pressure yet. Villain seemed fairly loose from the handful orf orbits I played with him but my only solid info was that he 3X'd last orbit then called a 15bbs shove with 810 suited and hit his flush against AQ.
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
- Small blind   125.00 125.00 8920.00
DannyMcs Big blind   250.00 375.00 6885.00
  Your hole cards
  • 9
  • 9
     
- Fold        
- Fold        
MM Raise   750.00 1125.00 15997.50
t- Fold        
DannyMcs All-in   6885.00 8010.00 0.00
MM Call   6385.00 14395.00 9612.50
DannyMcs Show
  • 9
  • 9
     
MM Show
  • A
  • A
     
Flop
   
  • 7
  • 8
  • J
     
Turn
   
  • K
     
River
   
  • 5
     
MM Win Pair of Aces 14395.00   24007.50
No complaints about this particular hand, obviously, but is this a bad move, generally speaking, if there's no one else in and you think oppo will call pretty wide?

After the fact I think it is a bad move, no need to stack off with 99 for 25bbs here, but would this be the right move with 1010? JJ? Where's the fine line? :)


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Comments

  • yuranASSetyuranASSet
    edited May 2011
    You played it like the clown you are , haha
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  • DannyMcsDannyMcs
    edited May 2011
    Hahaha, did the hailhail thing bother you so much you're chasing me around the forum having a go? Marvelous.

    I appreciate your insight though, very astute.
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  • The_Don90The_Don90
    edited May 2011
    seems fine to me. dont think yo can 3bet fold and flatting does allow pot control but we're OOP so i probably do the same. ul to walk into the goods.
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  • DannyMcsDannyMcs
    edited May 2011
    Cheers Don. Having had a bit of a dwell I really feel like it's the wrong move here even if I think villain is a total 'tard, but it's always good to get other opinions. Especially when they back up the original decision :)


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  • The_Don90The_Don90
    edited May 2011
    Well looking at it to make a 3-bet worthwhile you have to go to 2000, which is a third of your stack. A set mine its currently costing you over 10% of your stack its just not worth it. I just don't think you have much option other than to shove. Folding just seems to nitty aganst a guy you know wont fold T8 suited in this opinion.
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  • unknown_usernameunknown_username
    edited May 2011
    I dont hate the shove to be perfectly honest. I just think we may be too deep to be really comfortable with it. Your reads on villain dictate that the shove is fine. As Don says, you cant re raise really and i dont know how many flops you will be happy with so flatting to set mine may be too expensive but understandable. Shoving is probably the best move, given reads and situation, mostly gets through.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited May 2011
    I also dont like the shove, i would call pre and get in on low flop probably

    Reason i dont like the shove although he's a maniac your massively overplaying your hand, at best you can be flipping and insta calls where your miles behind. Its likely there going to call you wide but i dont think its a good move if im honest

    Yuras leave it out mate Danny is a top bloke get over it already he has said its nothing to do with Celtic
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited May 2011

    If he opens 3x w/T8 and calls off a 15x shove, then 99 is easily enough to jam on him here for value.

    I'd also be re-shoving maybe 66+, A8s+, ATo+,  KQ, maybe KJs.

    You say in your analysis there's no need to stack off here, but you aren't really, you've got lots of fold equity to fold out some flips, any 2 card combo of overcards will be in his button stealing range, alot of which he might fold as you're closer to 25xbb deep rather than the 15x he previously called off, and he may well call off with a hand that you're in great shape against. 

    Just ul, you could have waited abit until you were in the cash, then got your last 12xbb in w/AK and lose a flip against 66 or something. 

    I prefer the above approach though. nh.




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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited May 2011
    You really think the Villain folds out flips when he has just called 10-8 off? i dont,
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited May 2011

    It's a bigger shove. 

    And if he calls with hands like TJ, TQ, KT etc, he also calls A8, A7, A6, A5 etc.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited May 2011
    I still dont like it and i am not being results orientated, 99 post flop doesnt really play fantastic vs a wide range. Why not try to outplay him post flop as he's a maniac? also our chips are less at risk, is it because we are oop post flop you think its too tricky to play?
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited May 2011

    I think he will call with worse, that's my main reason for shoving.

    We're OOP vs an agro opponent with a marginal post flop hand, so it's going to be tough for us to outplay him post flop, much more likely that he will outplay us.

    If I hadn't seen him raise/stack off with 8T it might be different, what more encouragement do you need to shove???:s
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited May 2011
    I think i shove JJ + i probably shove here, I can understand both why he has shoved and why you think this is good JJ son but like i say i dont think it plays that well vs a very wide range the villain calls with here. Probably sounds a bit silly but if you are good enough and the villain is a donk then why not outplay him post flop? we are out of position so it will be tougher but at least we have more streets where we can find out about the villains hand

    probably just waffling here but just my opinion
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: Shoving medium pairs from the BB:
    I think i shove JJ + i probably shove here, I can understand both why he has shoved and why you think this is good JJ son but like i say i dont think it plays that well vs a very wide range the villain calls with here. Probably sounds a bit silly but if you are good enough and the villain is a donk then why not outplay him post flop? we are out of position so it will be tougher but at least we have more streets where we can find out about the villains hand probably just waffling here but just my opinion
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    The wider his range, the better 99 plays against it.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: Shoving medium pairs from the BB:
    In Response to Re: Shoving medium pairs from the BB : The wider his range, the better 99 plays against it.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    I am aware of that buddy lol
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  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited May 2011
    Agree with both of you.  9's dont play well post, potentially you get him to put his stack in 70/30, may pick up pot there, take away chance of being bluffed off pot OOP.

    However its never a bad idea to save a bullet for post flop action, if your intending to be allin regardless.
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited May 2011
    nh, I cant see why you would do anything else, unless he plays real fit or fold postflop
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  • percival09percival09
    edited May 2011
    perfectly played - flatting is bad here, as is raise folding ! 
    @YoungGun - Looks like your approach is more suited to cash, 25BB is nowhere near deep enough to flat and try to outplay your opponent
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  • scotty77scotty77
    edited May 2011
    looks ok.
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  • DannyMcsDannyMcs
    edited May 2011
    Thanks for all the input guys.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: Shoving medium pairs from the BB:
    perfectly played - flatting is bad here, as is raise folding !  @YoungGun - Looks like your approach is more suited to cash, 25BB is nowhere near deep enough to flat and try to outplay your opponent
    Posted by percival09
    lol its not, i suck at cash do ok in tourneys :P
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  • percival09percival09
    edited May 2011
    In Response to Re: Shoving medium pairs from the BB:
    In Response to Re: Shoving medium pairs from the BB : lol its not, i suck at cash do ok in tourneys :P
    Posted by YOUNG_GUN
    fair enough lol! - i wasn't saying your whole game, just that suggestion you made. 
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  • pryce6pryce6
    edited May 2011
    it's a jam. end of.
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