KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4

Dudeskin8

Very new to table only 2nd hand, only read I have is he raised once 4x pre with KK and also sat short nothing really to put him in a catorgary. I always raise with this sort of hand but is it possibly reverse implied odds postflop even if I hit my top pair but baring in mind its 4NL.

Dudeskin8	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£4.06
jiminy5314	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£6.05
	Your hole cards	Q K
honestpaul	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£2.10
Foo_Folder	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£2.95
tez104	Fold
tosca21	Fold
Dudeskin8	Raise		£0.24	£0.38	£3.82
jiminy5314	Raise		£0.44	£0.82	£5.61
honestpaul	Fold
Foo_Folder	Fold
Dudeskin8

YOUNG_GUN

Call and proceed with caution

DOHHHHHHH

If we know he's got aces, I think we gotta call?

YOUNG_GUN

They will re-raise with Kx suited fwiw percieval, I like that raise pre KQ is a good hand obviously not fantastic but plays well and i defo think its profitable to raise it pre in this spot, What i mean is they get attached to suited so its likely our KQ will play well vs it, i would still treat with some caution though

percival09

fair enough, suppose it's debatable at these limits! 

YOUNG_GUN

yeah its defo debateable i would never take my opinion as the way to do it, see what dohhh says...

offshoot

if you can fold top pair then call, if not, fold.

AMYBR

Your hand should be immaterial here.

He has effectively click raised you with no action behind.  Your getting the right value to call with 27o here with money invested.  There should never be a single thought towards folding, especially given the intrinsic value of your hand.

Call, proceed with caution.  C/F most flops.  See how action plays.  Also try to get to showdown cheap if hitting, make notes on what he click raised with.

grantorino

raising the limpers pre is good

meh call now, dont go mental postflop though

Dudeskin8

So if I call then face say an 80% pot bet on flop (TP either Q or K)  I presume I call or do I raise? Also if I call that bet what do I do when I face a potentially pot-comtting one on turn, fold, is that too weak?

grantorino

yeah its going to suck postflop pretty often, I think calling pre oop is pretty marginal even with those odds, I know I said call, but I'm open to being persuaded to fold. I call a cbet with tp and reeval turn.

Also amybr I doubt we have odds to call with 72o, why do you think we have? I would think KQ has serious rio issues against an unknown 3betting range at 4NL. Our odds are great, but its going to be so hard to not either get valuetowned or bluffed off the best hand postflop 

unknown_username

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:

if you can fold top pair then call, if not, fold.
Posted by offshoot

This.

I would probably see a flop. Looks like he is mega strong by the pre flop betting. I think you have to be fairly passive in this hand now and be prepared to get out of the way if it starts becoming too expensive. I would take the flop purely because if you hit it bang in the face he is sat very deep and there is a fair chance you could be taking a big pot. Just be careful, get to showdown cheaply or not at all if you dont hit a monster flop.

rancid

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:

if you can fold top pair then call, if not, fold.
Posted by offshoot

Best advice you get anyway for this kinda spot

rancid

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:

So if I call then face say an 80% pot bet on flop (TP either Q or K)  I presume I call or do I raise? Also if I call that bet what do I do when I face a potentially pot-comtting one on turn, fold, is that too weak?
Posted by Dudeskin8

Never call it's either a raise or a fold dependant on stack size which you should have known pre
so therefore in this case you can do either i guess even though it becomes a bit spewy over time if you keep doing this

grantorino

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4 : Never call it's either a raise or a fold dependant on stack size which you should have known pre so therefore in this case you can do either i guess even though it becomes a bit spewy over time if you keep doing this
Posted by rancid

if you are talking about on the flop I disagree. If we flop TPGK why do we raise?

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4 : if you are talking about on the flop I disagree. If we flop TPGK why do we raise?
Posted by grantorino

I agree if we flop top pair good kicker im stacking of here, nl4 they stack of worse pairs and missed hands

grantorino

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4 : I agree if we flop top pair good kicker im stacking of here, nl4 they stack of worse pairs and missed hands
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

I'm not sure I like stacking here, but even if I do decide to stack off it doesnt mean raise />call on flop

rancid

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4 : if you are talking about on the flop I disagree. If we flop TPGK why do we raise?
Posted by grantorino

Why would we call his supposed flop bet ? Have we gone into check/call down to the river ? That's gotta be bad. Check raise feels good here if he bets 3/4 pot.

Your saying call flop and see he does on the turn. I am not a fan of that TBH, think we just end up giving our money away.

If he is beating us a raise here means we get away for cheap surely, other than that we are potentially calling down three streets and we are loosing more money while he laughs at us over his glasses (

If he is weak and betting say a weak TP then we get him off or we are beating him either way we are good.

If he is super weak he will fold simple, he could be betting out on underpair

If he calls our raise then we look at the fold button very closely ) 

If he shoves on us then we have a very difficult spot )

Sod it just fold pre and save us this horrible spot

DOHHHHHHH

I've only recently understood why calling rather than "raising for information" or "raising to find out where I am" is better.....

I'm amazed I didn't lose money without understanding this, nevermind managed to win money.

If I was qualified to, I would write a post about why raising for information isn't the best option most of the time.

But I'm not, because I've only just got used to the concept myself. lol.

Maybe someone better than me could make it clear, or link to an article online somewhere that explains it, coz so many people mis-understand it (including me for a long longgggggg time)

rancid

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4 : I agree if we flop top pair good kicker im stacking of here, nl4 they stack of worse pairs and missed hands
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

I think this spot is very player dependant, it looks like a real big hand.

But it could also be mid pr, 87s, 10s, anything.

I would honestly just go with any notes.

If I have no notes then I am folding pre and keeping my eye on him to see what he showsdown

rancid

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:

I've only recently understood why calling rather than "raising for information" or "raising to find out where I am" is better..... I'm amazed I didn't lose money without understanding this, nevermind managed to win money. If I was qualified to, I would write a post about why raising for information isn't the best option most of the time. But I'm not, because I've only just got used to the concept myself. lol. Maybe someone better than me could make it clear, or link to an article online somewhere that explains it, coz so many people mis-understand it (including me for a long longgggggg time)
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Even though I agree with you 100%. Some spots like this horrible spot he could get into is so bad, the only way he can avoid not calling off three streets is to find out where he is for a cheaper price.

To be honest OOP KQ is not a great spot I want to get into without no str/fsh draws on the flop

If we were in position this would be an easy call to the turn, OOP check/calling is just blahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

You check turn and he just takes it away from you

DOHHHHHHH

The money we use raising the flop, just to fold when he shoves, could be used to check call the turn, and see if he has a third shell on the river.

This also gives us 2 more cards to improve.

He could have air, fire flop and turn and check back river.

He could bet flop and turn and the board get messy enough for him to check behind a stronger hand than we have on the river.

I would probably c/c x 3 at 4nl......if I had top pair with this hand readless, or make a "gut read" on the river if it just feels like he's got it.

He will slow down alot though.

grantorino

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4 : Why would we call his supposed flop bet ? Have we gone into check/call down to the river ? That's gotta be bad. Check raise feels good here if he bets 3/4 pot. Your saying call flop and see he does on the turn. I am not a fan of that TBH, think we just end up giving our money away. If he is beating us a raise here means we get away for cheap surely, other than that we are potentially calling down three streets and we are loosing more money while he laughs at us over his glasses ( If he is weak and betting say a weak TP then we get him off or we are beating him either way we are good. If he is super weak he will fold simple, he could be betting out on underpair If he calls our raise then we look at the fold button very closely )  If he shoves on us then we have a very difficult spot ) Sod it just fold pre and save us this horrible spot
Posted by rancid

Why is c/c down bad?

Just because we call flop doesnt mean we have to call 3 streets, although there is an argument for doing that

As doh said we can c/c 2 streets for the price of c/r flop, and sometimes he slows down

Why do you want to get him off a weak top pair or to make him fold an underpair? You are betting to make him fold worse and only call with better. This is bad. It is also why raising to find out where you are is always bad, if its the sole reason for betting
 
If you raise tpgk in a 3bet pot 100BB deep it has to be with intention of getting it in. Even if that is your intention calling may still be better than raising depending on board, villain tendencies etc

I'm starting to lean towards folding pre also tbh

rancid

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:

You are betting to make him fold worse and only call with better. This is bad. It is also why raising to find out where you are is always bad, if its the sole reason for betting   
Posted by grantorino

I agree it's all bad, but my point being this is a bad spot and it feels whatever way you want to play it does not seem to reap any benefits ? Unless your against a known aggro player who will bet TPWK or underpair and or someone who will slow down on the turn or river.

That's why fold pre seems very apt doesn't it because you OOP with a very possible vulnerable hand

blind on blind I may even 4 bet pre lol and say hey what you got in the BB

Dudeskin8

Well I ended up folding as figured it might get tricky post flop and unless I hit 2 pair trips I wouldn't really know where I was.

Dudeskin8	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£4.06
jiminy5314	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£6.05
	Your hole cards	Q K
honestpaul	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£2.10
Foo_Folder	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£2.95
tez104	Fold
tosca21	Fold
Dudeskin8	Raise		£0.24	£0.38	£3.82
jiminy5314	Raise		£0.44	£0.82	£5.61
honestpaul	Fold
Foo_Folder	Fold
Dudeskin8	Fold
jiminy5314	Muck
jiminy5314	Win		£0.60		£6.21
jiminy5314	Return		£0.22	£0.00	£6.43

jakally

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4 : Never call it's either a raise or a fold dependant on stack size which you should have known pre so therefore in this case you can do either i guess even though it becomes a bit spewy over time if you keep doing this
Posted by rancid

Say his 3bet PF is AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, JJ and some random air.

Flop comes Q96r, he bets 80% pot and you raise....what happens?

He calls or raises AA, KK, QQ, AQ, and folds all his air..... marvellous.

You are hoping he gets stubborn with AK or JJ, which may happen, but more often than not he will fold these as well.

Much better to let him stay in the pot with his air. He will already have invested a chunk, so is more likely than not to have another stab.

rancid

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4 : Say his 3bet PF is AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, JJ and some random air. Flop comes Q96r, he bets 80% pot and you raise....what happens? He calls or raises AA, KK, QQ, AQ, and folds all his air..... marvellous. You are hoping he gets stubborn with AK or JJ, which may happen, but more often than not he will fold these as well. Much better to let him stay in the pot with his air. He will already have invested a chunk, so is more likely than not to have another stab.
Posted by jakally

I can't argue with that yeah we want me in the pot if we got him beat yeah of course.
And yeah we only getting called or raised by either a hand thats beating us or a call to float.
I guess if we call flop and he checks back the turn then we know we are good.
What do we do if bets 3/4 pot on the turn then fold i guess It's a bit tricky on turn.
Can he fire 3 bullets ? So we call the turn and he fires again
Feels like we putting ourselves in a spot where we have no easy decision, I would rarther be in spots where I have easy decisions. Hence why i said raise the flop bet

jakally

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4 : I can't argue with that yeah we want me in the pot if we got him beat yeah of course. And yeah we only getting called or raised by either a hand thats beating us or a call to float. I guess if we call flop and he checks back the turn then we know we are good. What do we do if bets 3/4 pot on the turn then fold i guess It's a bit tricky on turn. Can he fire 3 bullets ? So we call the turn and he fires again Feels like we putting ourselves in a spot where we have no easy decision, I would rarther be in spots where I have easy decisions. Hence why i said raise the flop bet
Posted by rancid

Sometimes, making decisions easy means winning small pots and losing big ones......

Whether we call multiple streets depends on the opponent.... it's where notes come in handy.

I'm happy to call 3 streets if I think it's profitable.... but you need an opponent who 3 bets light PF, and doesn't give up post flop when he misses.

Better to fold PF than to call flop fold turn every time we hit.

AMYBR

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:

I've only recently understood why calling rather than "raising for information" or "raising to find out where I am" is better..... I'm amazed I didn't lose money without understanding this, nevermind managed to win money. If I was qualified to, I would write a post about why raising for information isn't the best option most of the time. But I'm not, because I've only just got used to the concept myself. lol. Maybe someone better than me could make it clear, or link to an article online somewhere that explains it, coz so many people mis-understand it (including me for a long longgggggg time)
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

+1

I think if your strong post flop its  not such a huge issue.  But re educating myself on this has changed a fundamental aspect of my game, for the better.

rancid

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4:

In Response to Re: KQ pre SB raise facing small 3bet from BB NL4 : +1 I think if your strong post flop its  not such a huge issue.  But re educating myself on this has changed a fundamental aspect of my game, for the better.
Posted by AMYBR

Indeed you have to play post flop very well to start check/calling OOP or even in position
On the whole the raising/betting for info or probe bet is just bad
A while ago it was very much part of my game but soon realised you should only be betting/raising for two reasons.

Get em off a better hand or for value
This does take a while to sink.
 But I do still bet/raise to nothing, it does have a place in my game somewhere in certain spots.