ALL IN ALL OUT?

6luci6fer6 · June 2009

HI ALL, i'm quite new to this so please be patient.
I've just read spukts a9 off exit hand(fantastic replys by the way what a wealth of knowledge)think i would have folded,waited for better position and pushed,but its all very easy after the event haha,which brings to my SITUATION,HERE WE GO,

BLINDS 800/1000
AVG STACK 20,000
LARGE STACK 47,000
MY STACK 13,000

This tourny is'nt at the same level as spukt's but like him i play my best to win{£1.20 by in 130 or so runners}or whats the point.I'm sat, just after the break 1 behind the button who has,28,000 ,5 on my table ,2 places awy from the final table sb 13,000 bb 13,000, now my image was quite tight(on this table)and my read on both sb and bb were also thight at this stage,but the button had now started raising most hand's (and why not)i get 55 gets folds to me i raise 3 the button flat call's sb bb fold ,flop comes q 2 9 rainbow i push all in button call's ......kk. im out!!!
MY question is was this wrong given the info for me to push or would patients been a vertue?
ALL OPINIONS PLEASE

6luci6fer6 · June 2009

In Response to ALL IN ALL OUT?:

HI ALL, i'm quite new to this so please be patient. I've just read spukts a9 off exit hand(fantastic replys by the way what a wealth of knowledge)think i would have folded,waited for better position and pushed,but its all very easy after the event haha,which brings to my SITUATION,HERE WE GO, BLINDS 800/1000 AVG STACK 20,000 LARGE STACK 47,000 MY STACK 13,000 This tourny is'nt at the same level as spukt's but like him i play my best to win{£1.20 by in 130 or so runners}or whats the point.I'm sat, just after the break 1 behind the button who has,28,000 ,5 on my table ,2 places awy from the final table sb 13,000 bb 13,000, now my image was quite tight(on this table)and my read on both sb and bb were also thight at this stage,but the button had now started raising most hand's (and why not)i get 55 gets folds to me i raise 3 the button flat call's sb bb fold ,flop comes q 2 9 rainbow i push all in button call's ......kk. im out!!! MY question is was this wrong given the info for me to push or would patients been a vertue? ALL OPINIONS PLEASE
Posted by 6luci6fer6

A BIG SORRY REF SUPKT AS YOUNGUN SORRY told u i was new to this

mr_mbro · June 2009

In Response to ALL IN ALL OUT?:

HI ALL, i'm quite new to this so please be patient. I've just read spukts a9 off exit hand(fantastic replys by the way what a wealth of knowledge)think i would have folded,waited for better position and pushed,but its all very easy after the event haha,which brings to my SITUATION,HERE WE GO, BLINDS 800/1000 AVG STACK 20,000 LARGE STACK 47,000 MY STACK 13,000 This tourny is'nt at the same level as spukt's but like him i play my best to win{£1.20 by in 130 or so runners}or whats the point.I'm sat, just after the break 1 behind the button who has,28,000 ,5 on my table ,2 places awy from the final table sb 13,000 bb 13,000, now my image was quite tight(on this table)and my read on both sb and bb were also thight at this stage,but the button had now started raising most hand's (and why not)i get 55 gets folds to me i raise 3 the button flat call's sb bb fold ,flop comes q 2 9 rainbow i push all in button call's ......kk. im out!!! MY question is was this wrong given the info for me to push or would patients been a vertue? ALL OPINIONS PLEASE
Posted by 6luci6fer6

Hi M8,
The only thing i would say is why push when you only have 3rd pair. You have had some resistantence to your origininal bet, so, ask yourself. WHAT AM I BEATING ON THAT FLOP.
Having said that, if youve seen the other posts then pushin would be the right thing, but, Imo, you have to think that your opponent was calling with something and could have easily hit that flop.
Dont get me wrong im not saying you were wrong but you must start thinking about not just your hand but what your opponent might call you with.
hope this helps
col

6luci6fer6 · June 2009

In Response to Re: ALL IN ALL OUT?:

In Response to ALL IN ALL OUT? : Hi M8, The only thing i would say is why push when you only have 3rd pair. You have had some resistantence to your origininal bet, so, ask yourself. WHAT AM I BEATING ON THAT FLOP. Having said that, if youve seen the other posts then pushin would be the right thing, but, Imo, you have to think that your opponent was calling with something and could have easily hit that flop. Dont get me wrong im not saying you were wrong but you must start thinking about not just your hand but what your opponent might call you with. hope this helps col
Posted by mr_mbro

thanks m8,my intension was a semi bluff attempt rarther than push pre flop, as the button (so i thought) would have called/reraised with almost any hand for that price.yes no mayb ?????

S1DEWINDER · June 2009

I don't think you've got any other choice there, get them in. You cannot speculate that he's trapping you one little bit. The only thing that surprised me (as you described it) was that the button didn't come over the top pre flop. Its one of those situations which basically plays itself - your short, got a hand, could easily get called/re-raised with ace high.

The only thing I'd say would probably be is that you may aswell have shoved yourself, no point in just raising 3x (this is on the pre flop action), you're not getting away from the hand. As was, it was an instant call from him, but thats poker.

The blinds sky rocket, no point in hanging around, 55 is a pretty good hand all told, theres a very good chance you're getting called with A high. As for what you do after the flop - nothing else you can do, but personally I'd have gotten it all in pre flop.

6luci6fer6 · June 2009

In Response to Re: ALL IN ALL OUT?:

I don't think you've got any other choice there, get them in. You cannot speculate that he's trapping you one little bit. The only thing that surprised me (as you described it) was that the button didn't come over the top pre flop. Its one of those situations which basically plays itself - your short, got a hand, could easily get called/re-raised with ace high. The only thing I'd say would probably be is that you may aswell have shoved yourself, no point in just raising 3x (this is on the pre flop action), you're not getting away from the hand. As was, it was an instant call from him, but thats poker. The blinds sky rocket, no point in hanging around, 55 is a pretty good hand all told, theres a very good chance you're getting called with A high. As for what you do after the flop - nothing else you can do, but personally I'd have gotten it all in pre flop.
Posted by S1DEWINDER

thanks s1winder spot on,after thinking hard about this your right a push all in pre flop was the only action i should have made.thanks (still made the cash £5.25) great little torni though. thanks again for your reply.

BigBluster · June 2009

I'm not sure a pre-flop shove was the only action you could have made.
You did what's called a 'stop and go' play: a play which is becoming quite popular. Rather than shoving pre-flop, you raise, then shove irrespective of the flop. What would the villain have done with, say, AJ or 88? Called a pre-flop shove but folded to your move on the flop I guess. Even if there were only a small extra chance of him folding on the flop, what have you lost by playing it this way? (Assuming he wouldn't have called your PF raise with 92o).

Alternatively, you could have raised just two BB pre-flop. You would then not have been pot-committed and could have folded should anyone come over the top. Less chance of stealing the blinds, but the BB didn't call with 4/1 odds pre-flop so was a checkboxer.

Fold would have possibly been a good move.

How about the limp? No-one will support this, but look at the maths. There's a 1 in 10 chance of you hitting your set on the flop, whereby your 13K stack becomes a 26K stack. If you miss, you fold and are at 12K and still in with a fighting chance. Don't discard the limp, though no doubt this play will come in for some serious criticism. If you had only 9K in your stack then limping is not an option, but right now you still have just enough for a couple of speculative limp/fold moves.

What would I have done? Don't know, I wasn't there!

YoungUn · June 2009

Firstly I think there's a typo in the OP, I've never seen blinds at 800/1,000 before, and since the average is at 20k I would presume that the blinds were actually 800/1,600.

Now, to the actual hand. You have 13k, which if my assumption on the what the blinds are is correct, then you have just over 8BB. I am always shipping it all-in pre-flop with 55 in the cut-off when i'm under 10BB's (unless i'm on the bubble of a satellite and the players behind me have big stacks or are calling super light). If I make a standard raise, like you did, then I'm only limited to 2 moves post-flop because of the size of my stack, and those moves are all-in, or give up on the hand and hope for a cheap showdown. When you have 55, you're going to hate so many flops that more often than not you're going to give up on winning the pot and therefore you've just given away a huge percentage of your stack. I should stress, though, that this is my opinion and my playing style. As you noticed in my A9 thread, my opinion and playing style doesn't match up with many others!

@BigBluster: I have to question a couple of your statements in that last post...

Firstly, I'm fairly certain that a stop-and-go play is when someone CALLS a raise, usually from out of the blinds, and then shoves on any flop, as opposed to small-raising pre and then shoving post.

Secondly, I'm also fairly certain that you're actually 4.3/1 to hit a set on the flop, not 9/1.

I'm not 100% certain on either of those, and please don't take any offence by me correcting you.

BigBluster · June 2009

You're right about the definition of the stop-and-go play which usually occurs from the blinds and is made by the person first to act. In the example given, with the blinds folding and the hero being first to act, it is a very similar scenario but you are correct.

I've just checked: a pair will flop a set once in every 8.5 hands.

DevilDonk · June 2009

Your effective M here was so low that you would had no choice but to play this hand

with a short stack this would have been shipped preflop and hope that you pick up the blinds which isnt a bad result as this gives you one more orbit of the table

if you bump into a bigger hand, thats just the way it is in torneys!!

6luci6fer6 · June 2009

In Response to Re: ALL IN ALL OUT?:

I'm not sure a pre-flop shove was the only action you could have made. You did what's called a 'stop and go' play: a play which is becoming quite popular. Rather than shoving pre-flop, you raise, then shove irrespective of the flop. What would the villain have done with, say, AJ or 88? Called a pre-flop shove but folded to your move on the flop I guess. Even if there were only a small extra chance of him folding on the flop, what have you lost by playing it this way? (Assuming he wouldn't have called your PF raise with 92o). Alternatively, you could have raised just two BB pre-flop. You would then not have been pot-committed and could have folded should anyone come over the top. Less chance of stealing the blinds, but the BB didn't call with 4/1 odds pre-flop so was a checkboxer. Fold would have possibly been a good move. How about the limp? No-one will support this, but look at the maths. There's a 1 in 10 chance of you hitting your set on the flop, whereby your 13K stack becomes a 26K stack. If you miss, you fold and are at 12K and still in with a fighting chance. Don't discard the limp, though no doubt this play will come in for some serious criticism. If you had only 9K in your stack then limping is not an option, but right now you still have just enough for a couple of speculative limp/fold moves. What would I have done? Don't know, I wasn't there!
Posted by BigBluster

VERY INTERESTING SUGGESTIONS THANK YOU VERY MUCH(will ponder this for some time)

6luci6fer6 · June 2009

In Response to Re: ALL IN ALL OUT?:

Firstly I think there's a typo in the OP, I've never seen blinds at 800/1,000 before, and since the average is at 20k I would presume that the blinds were actually 800/1,600. Now, to the actual hand. You have 13k, which if my assumption on the what the blinds are is correct, then you have just over 8BB. I am always shipping it all-in pre-flop with 55 in the cut-off when i'm under 10BB's (unless i'm on the bubble of a satellite and the players behind me have big stacks or are calling super light). If I make a standard raise, like you did, then I'm only limited to 2 moves post-flop because of the size of my stack, and those moves are all-in, or give up on the hand and hope for a cheap showdown. When you have 55, you're going to hate so many flops that more often than not you're going to give up on winning the pot and therefore you've just given away a huge percentage of your stack. I should stress, though, that this is my opinion and my playing style. As you noticed in my A9 thread, my opinion and playing style doesn't match up with many others! @BigBluster: I have to question a couple of your statements in that last post... Firstly, I'm fairly certain that a stop-and-go play is when someone CALLS a raise, usually from out of the blinds, and then shoves on any flop, as opposed to small-raising pre and then shoving post. Secondly, I'm also fairly certain that you're actually 4.3/1 to hit a set on the flop, not 9/1. I'm not 100% certain on either of those, and please don't take any offence by me correcting you.
Posted by YoungUn

THANK YOU and ur quite correct about the blinds,i would be very interested in what u thought of the actual play and thoughs very interesting ones of Bigbluster thank you both for your time and effort

6luci6fer6 · June 2009

In Response to Re: ALL IN ALL OUT?:

Your effective M here was so low that you would had no choice but to play this hand with a short stack this would have been shipped preflop and hope that you pick up the blinds which isnt a bad result as this gives you one more orbit of the table if you bump into a bigger hand, thats just the way it is in torneys!!
Posted by DevilDonk

thank you for your reply/so your saying an all in pre is prob the best move which after some thought seem's corect that is till i read Bigbluster's reply very interesting.
thank's again for your time.

ALL IN ALL OUT?

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