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Carlo Citrone right or wrong in this situation?
Hi guys.
This is a hand that was shown on mastercash last night and it has bugged me all night long after hearing Carlos comments saying that im losing value by folding in this spot in the long run.
If it had been a tourny i would be jamming here everytime but in a cash game i think the play is to fold here.
I respect Carlos views and know without doubt he is a very good player but as we all know "nobody is right all the time" and the more i thought about the hand my thinking is that i am saving cash in this situaton in the long run and not losing it.
Just wanted to throw it over to the players on here to find out their views on the hand and to get a majority rule.
TYIA Jenny.
Hand History #383513021 (22:50 18/06/2011)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceOzzie08Small blind £0.15£0.15£67.92muhammedBig blind £0.30£0.45£40.78 Your hole cardsQQ jenny_IYYRaise £0.90£1.35£161.57corbett04Fold avemariaCall £0.90£2.25£66.04LnarinOOFold Ozzie08Fold muhammedFold Flop 472 jenny_IYYBet £2.25£4.50£159.32avemariaRaise £5.20£9.70£60.84jenny_IYYRaise £8.70£18.40£150.62avemariaRaise £30.00£48.40£30.84jenny_IYYFold avemariaMuck avemariaWin £22.94 £53.78avemariaReturn £24.25£1.21£78.03
This is a hand that was shown on mastercash last night and it has bugged me all night long after hearing Carlos comments saying that im losing value by folding in this spot in the long run.
If it had been a tourny i would be jamming here everytime but in a cash game i think the play is to fold here.
I respect Carlos views and know without doubt he is a very good player but as we all know "nobody is right all the time" and the more i thought about the hand my thinking is that i am saving cash in this situaton in the long run and not losing it.
Just wanted to throw it over to the players on here to find out their views on the hand and to get a majority rule.
TYIA Jenny.
Hand History #383513021 (22:50 18/06/2011)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceOzzie08Small blind £0.15£0.15£67.92muhammedBig blind £0.30£0.45£40.78 Your hole cardsQQ jenny_IYYRaise £0.90£1.35£161.57corbett04Fold avemariaCall £0.90£2.25£66.04LnarinOOFold Ozzie08Fold muhammedFold Flop 472 jenny_IYYBet £2.25£4.50£159.32avemariaRaise £5.20£9.70£60.84jenny_IYYRaise £8.70£18.40£150.62avemariaRaise £30.00£48.40£30.84jenny_IYYFold avemariaMuck avemariaWin £22.94 £53.78avemariaReturn £24.25£1.21£78.03
Comments
My orig post didnt show stack sizes which were Jenny £161.57 and avemaria £66.04
So are you saying fold in this situation don or jam it in ?
Regardless, i think it is a fold readless because its very unusual for a 4 bet on the flop to be worse than your hand, unless the villain is overvaluing a hand or is a complete idiot.
Good luck on the tables.
To then raise again means you want to get it in so to fold after 3betting on flop is pretty bad as you're raising for information and that should NEVER happen.
Most of the time QQ is beating very little after these betting patterns and the times it is beating your opponant should mean he is by far a worse player than you 99% of the time and he will be doing his cash in later hands anyways.
Fold and wait for better spot SIMPLZZZZZ
The 3 bet does not mean we must stack off imo. The villain may or may not know what a 3 bet normally means! we are readless i believe.
I would prob flat rather than 3 bet personally. But as played, i think it was the correct fold.
Raise folding 29 bb's doesn't feel right to me somehow.
I know that people say you should never 3 bet fold in spots like this. But maybe on this occasion we are deep enough to justify it.?
I imagine i will be told im wrong and that 3 bet folding here is evil.
Fold move on imo
fwiw heres what I wrote in the show thread
one of the biggest problems that people face in poker is folding overpairs to the board.
you made a great fold that given the action would be correct a large amount of the time.
don't be results orientated. espeically as the guy didn't outplay you. he overplayed his hand. the villain int eh hand with 78 on a 7 5 3 (I think) board made a bet that was never gonna get called by a worse hand.
if he had made the same bet with say K9 on a 753 then you can say that he outplayed you but on that kinda board with his hand, then in the long run he will be outplaying himself but totally unaware of it
If you soul read it for a set then hey wp
Most of the time he will be showing you 10's, J's or 2 overs and FD.
So you could say he would be more likey to show up with a hand your beating than a hand you not.
AA/KK very possible but action pre does not indicate this, AK spades more likely or scared mid pr.
Also gotta say when you bet the flop and he raises you and then you fire back, here you just can't fold.
Raising here for information is very bad imo, better off just to flat and see what comes on the turn.
If your always doing "raising for info" then players will pick up on this and make moves against you with air.
So he could have nothing
Also I don't think you raise is big enough when you fire back, he probably see this as weak and made a move
Imo flat the flop raise. I hate 3bet/fold because for it to be good we need to know he calls often with worse but only raises with better. This is not realistic against an unknown (or most players) so Im either flatting flop or raising with the intention of getting it in
These were my thoughts on it at the time and even more so now.
The options i had in my mind were
1. Fold to his raise on flop (which was never going to happen because he could have anything and be looking at my continuation bet as just a standard play.
2. Push all in or raise with the intentions of pushing to a reraise ( which was also never going to happen because in my opinion i had nowhere near enough info to be doing that with only 1 pair and it seems a MTT play in all honesty).
3. Flat call and take it from there depending on turn card which was possible but it also dosnt give me anymore info at that point as to how strong he is and i decided to not do this incase another scare card came on turn and i really wouldnt know where i was in the hand with only 1 pair facing poss flushs, straights, sets etc.
4.(Which is what i did) 3 bet his raise to see how strong he was at that point in time, because in my opinion most players with a draw or top pair/overpair etc will only call in that spot and only very strong hands would 4 bet me there most of the time as my hand now is screaming big pocket pair and in my mind only a very small % of players would be good enough to know they can push me off my hand or bad enough to think that anything less than what i was holding was good enough to be infront at that point.
I feel certain that my play is +ev long term and would love to hear Carlos thoughts again now he has had time to take another look at it and bearing in mind like scotty says above i cant see the other players cards.
Either way Carlo i still think your the man and a very good player and like i said earlier everyone has diferent ways of playing hands and i respect all your thoughts and comments
Anyways. ty for all of your replys and good luck to you all at the tables
Jenny.
Surely flatting flop is the weaker play and gives your oppo chance to hit draws etc ?
Playing it the way she did at least lets her find out if she is facing a made hand there and then instead of flatting and prob costing her more to find out on the turn because if a blank comes she is none the wiser at that point and if a draw hits there are even more hands to worry about.
The way it played out i think it was 1 in 100 that the oppo did what he did with a weaker hand and flatting flop seems so nitty to me although it is another way she could have played it.