Overbet jamming turn to (try and) shut out draws?

DannyMcs

Is this bad?

Hand History #388977891 (22:52 05/07/2011)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
DannyMcs	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£25.66
POCKFOLD2	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£7.60
	Your hole cards	J Q
Brewmaker9	Fold
VILLAIN	Raise		£0.40	£0.70	£16.66
DannyMcs	Call		£0.30	£1.00	£25.36
POCKFOLD2	Fold
Flop
		8 7 Q
DannyMcs	Check
VILLAIN	Bet		£0.80	£1.80	£15.86
DannyMcs	Call		£0.80	£2.60	£24.56
Turn
		7
DannyMcs	Check
VILLAIN	Bet		£3.00	£5.60	£12.86
DannyMcs	All-in		£24.56	£30.16	£0.00
VILLAIN	All-in		£12.86	£43.02	£0.00
DannyMcs	Unmatched bet		£8.70	£34.32	£8.70
DannyMcs	Show	J Q
VILLAIN	Show	6 5
River
		4
VILLAIN	Win	Straight to the 8	£32.60		£32.60

Leaving aside their lol-worthy call for a moment, is the big c/r on the turn a bad way to try and get people off draws? Villain is fairly bad imo and has already shown down missed draws they commited too much flop/turn cash to, I was 95% certain the 2nd 7 hadn't hit them and they were playing the scare card/trying to shut it down there.

If I'm sure they're on two random hearts here is the c/r jam bad? I know I'm putting £25 in to win £5 with a weak top pair. At the same time I'm sure I'm good and they're drawing to limited outs (even more limited than I thought, it turns out).

How does the fact that the villain has proved themselves a huge station affect things for the future? Do I try and build a huge pot before their draw completes? Or play wet boards slower when I have top pair-ish type hands and just try and pick up medium sized pots, putting the brakes on if draws complete by the river or vbetting if it doesn't seem dangerous?

GREGHOGG

You made a fish pay big for his draw.. Looks like you played it spot on!

I would value bet this villain to death in future and continue to over bet on boards like this with the goods! 

The c/r on the turn is interesting, because you must have had a read that he would also bluff his draws. Obv you risk him taking a free card tho if he decides not to bet.

DannyMcs

Cheers greg, and yeah, I'm fairly confident he's getting more money in on the turn, he's built several big pots then had to give up on them when his draw doesn't get there on the river.

Mulling it over I think I like a c/r to £10 or so, at least in future. He's clearly calling just about anything until all 5 cards are down, I think the slightly smaller raise reps the 7 better AND lets me get away from it a little cheaper if a heart comes on the river. The irony is I'd have got the rest in on the black 4 river anyway, so much for my solid reads

jenny_IYY

In this instant the overbet shove wasnt too bad as your oppo only had another £12 or so left in his stack and your reads on him being a total loon were totally justified by his call, but unless you are certain the player is a total idiot and that he will stick it in with any old rubbish i would be more careful of playing this way in future.

Your only sitting with t/p 3rd kicker on a paired board and any amount of hands could have you crushed pre flop, on the flop or turn so always take your stack sizes into consideration before doing something like this and also remember that when your playing at a cash table you never want to frighten off your oppo from calling because thats what cash playing is all about ( making cash and getting them to put it in ).

As long as you charge them slightly over the odds if you think they are on a draw and pay slightly under the odds when you are then you will be a winner long term even if they do suck out on you from time to time.

But as far as this villain goes i would tag him as bad and charge him top dollar until he goes back to fun money

Good luck and well played

Jenny

BTW GREGHOGG if you read this i totally agree with what you said on saturday nights master cash about you should have folded your ace jack on the river v cmcc bet even though the guys in the studio thought it was ok to call. Im sure you have played him loads of times compared to the few times i have played him but in my opinion he might as well be playing with his cards face up lol and im sure by what you said to the guys in the studio that you feel the same way too. anyways gl at the tables.

grantorino

The most important thing for you to learn here is you dont want to shut out their draws, you want to charge them as much as they will pay to chase them.

If they will chase draws to massive overbets, overbetting is fine.

DannyMcs

Thanks folks. I don't think there's much between charging them over the odds and putting them all in in this case but that wasn't really how I was thinking about it at the time, so point noted, cheers.

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: Overbet jamming turn to (try and) shut out draws?:

In this instant the overbet shove wasnt too bad as your oppo only had another £12 or so left in his stack and your reads on him being a total loon were totally justified by his call, but unless you are certain the player is a total idiot and that he will stick it in with any old rubbish i would be more careful of playing this way in future. Your only sitting with t/p 3rd kicker on a paired board and any amount of hands could have you crushed pre flop, on the flop or turn so always take your stack sizes into consideration before doing something like this and also remember that when your playing at a cash table you never want to frighten off your oppo from calling because thats what cash playing is all about ( making cash and getting them to put it in ). As long as you charge them slightly over the odds if you think they are on a draw and pay slightly under the odds when you are then you will be a winner long term even if they do suck out on you from time to time. But as far as this villain goes i would tag him as bad and charge him top dollar until he goes back to fun money Good luck and well played Jenny BTW GREGHOGG if you read this i totally agree with what you said on saturday nights master cash about you should have folded your ace jack on the river v cmcc bet even though the guys in the studio thought it was ok to call. Im sure you have played him loads of times compared to the few times i have played him but in my opinion he might as well be playing with his cards face up lol and im sure by what you said to the guys in the studio that you feel the same way too. anyways gl at the tables.
Posted by jenny_IYY

Cheers Jenny!

I played super awful that night. TBH i had been on the beers all day, and shouldnt have been on the tables lol.
You know how you know your making the wrong decision, but you do it anyway... it was that kind of night!
Thanks for backing up my thoughts