Name the hands

mr_mbro

Hi All,
This hand took place in the £5.50 deepstack on Monday.
We are down to 19 players left.(5 handed).
chip stacks,
utg - 13625
p1 - approx 30000
me - 19850
sb - 20145
bb - 9658
blinds are 600/1200
utg raises to 3600, p1 folds, I reraise all-in for 19850, the blinds fold, utg insta calls.
What do we both have? What are our ranges?
I've been playing my normal game and utg had shown had that they were chasing(and hitting) straights, going in behind. Not loose, ie not playing that many hands.
There is a secondary stategic question to this but i'll do that later tonight.

col

Grimstar30

Hi Col, 

Hope you don't mind me having a guess.

UTG has just over 10x bb so a 3x pre flop raise is borderline not premium strategy here, could argue for a shove at that point. Therefore my interpretation of his play is that he wants someone to raise him all in (or that kind of play) and he is holding a premium pair - QQ KK AA. Possibly AK-AQ. I come to that conclusion as an all in shove preflop would basically mean he could hold any two cards.

If you are playing your normal game Col I would put you on mid-high pocket pair JJ-AA. Not sure you would put your tournament on the line with any other cards.

So my interpretation is:

UTG = QQ / KK / AA / AK/ AQ

Colin = 77-AA

I have a feeling you may have been dominated by an over pair.

Dave

mr_mbro

In Response to Re: Name the hands:

Hi Col,  Hope you don't mind me having a guess. UTG has just over 10x bb so a 3x pre flop raise is borderline not premium strategy here, could argue for a shove at that point. Therefore my interpretation of his play is that he wants someone to raise him all in (or that kind of play) and he is holding a premium pair - QQ KK AA. Possibly AK-AQ. I come to that conclusion as an all in shove preflop would basically mean he could hold any two cards. If you are playing your normal game Col I would put you on mid-high pocket pair JJ-AA. Not sure you would put your tournament on the line with any other cards. So my interpretation is: UTG = QQ / KK / AA / AK/ AQ Colin = 77-AA I have a feeling you may have been dominated by an over pair. Dave
Posted by Grimstar30

Hi Dave,
dont put youself down mate. If someone puts a thread up, its for EVERYONE to reply. To be honest, I want all standards to reply, from beginners to experts, (not that you are a beginner mate), so never apologise for having a go, but check out the answer later(i'll post it before 9pm tonight, to see if your correct). 

Sky_Dave

Interesting one. I would say UTG *ought* to have at least KQ, AT+ or any pair bigger than say 55. 

His opening bet to 3,600 is odd though. If I knew he was an experienced player, I might take that as a sign of extreme strength. Not knowing the player helps, but by and large I think the average Sky Poker player might just be opening for the standard 3x BB without realising it's leaving him pot committed. I am going to stick with my above range, tightening it if I know the player is a good solid player who is positionally aware, etc.

I wouldn't read so much into the snap call. Again, he's put 3.6k in there and by the time you jam your chips into the middle, he's got 10k to call to win a pot of 19k (1.2k + 0.6k + 3.6k + 13.6k). It's pretty automatic with any two unless he reads you for a big pair. 

As for you, you have to have a tighter range UNLESS you think you can blow him off the hand and are feeling frisky. I put this down as a very slim chance though, so again, I wouldn't make this move with less than AQo or pocket pairs higher than nines. 99 is marginal, AJ I think is a fold and I would HATE to see you do this with something like KJ or KQ. 

Conclusion:

Villain: KQ, AT+ or 55+.

You: AQo+, 99+

Please don't tell me he had 33, you put him on a small pair and shoved with KJo. I will cry if you do.

FlashFlush

I'm thinking along the same lines as both of the above... although as you are posting this on here i presume he had junk, lol ... but i would say his range is JJ-AA or AQ,AK (especially as he "Instacalled") I would of thought TT or less would be instant shove to narrow the field.... Col i would TBH put u on the same range, as him, hard to say an exact hand because you could do this with AQ,AK, TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA ....

Grimstar30

I have it in a book somewhere but even 22 v AK , the 22 is fav isn't it?

Grimstar30

In Response to Re: Name the hands:

I'm thinking along the same lines as both of the above... although as you are posting this on here i presume he had junk, lol ... but i would say his range is JJ-AA or AQ,AK (especially as he "Instacalled") I would of thought TT or less would be instant shove to narrow the field.... Col i would TBH put u on the same range, as him, hard to say an exact hand because you could do this with AQ,AK, TT,JJ,QQ,KK,AA ....
Posted by FlashFlush

Glad to know I'm thinking along your lines Charlie I'm learning 

Sky_Dave

It's all a matter of fractions, Dave. 22 is a fav against AK I think, something like 51-49.

Grimstar30

In Response to Re: Name the hands:

It's all a matter of fractions, Dave. 22 is a fav against AK I think, something like 51-49.
Posted by Sky_Dave

ok thanks Dave

Not sure I would ever risk my tournament with 22 lol

Sky_Dave

Yeah, I am off the same school of thought. It's one of those where you're only ever getting it in 50 odd percent, while you could be crushed to an overpair. It's like HOPING for a flip is ok. Sometimes it is, of course (when you're really short), but jamming with for 15xBB or so would make me run for the hills.

MereNovice

In Response to Re: Name the hands:

It's all a matter of fractions, Dave. 22 is a fav against AK I think, something like 51-49.
Posted by Sky_Dave

If you consolidate the splits into the odds for the individual hands, it's 53/47 for the 22 with no colliding suits.
If the AK is suited it's almost exactly 50/50.
So, yes, it's a matter of fractions.

Sky_Dave

In Response to Re: Name the hands:

In Response to Re: Name the hands : If you consolidate the splits into the odds for the individual hands, it's 53/47 for the 22 with no colliding suits. If the AK is suited it's almost exactly 50/50.
Posted by MereNovice

AcKc vs 2c2x is 49.7% v 50.3%. Close enough for government work

MereNovice

In Response to Re: Name the hands:

In Response to Re: Name the hands : AcKc vs 2c2x is 49.7% v 50.3%. Close enough for government work
Posted by Sky_Dave

Indeed, I just can't help myself sometimes.

MereNovice

Anyway, getting back to the original post, I think you both had AA.

Tikay10

wow, what a question!

I can't begin to guess either hand.

But I can shove for my stack (which is a BIG overbet) with a LOT of hands here, though I'm most likely to do it with AK.

But the Villain can then only Call with 2 hands, AA & KK.*

* I'm talking in theory, but in the real world, he may well call you with anything. I get Called VERY light on here, as you can imagine, so I'm kinda used to it. One guy called me for 54 x BB with Q-8, all-in pre!

MereNovice

In Response to Re: Name the hands:

wow, what a question! I can't begin to guess either hand. But I can shove for my stack (which is a BIG overbet) with a LOT of hands here, though I'm most likely to do it with AK. But the Villain can then only Call with 2 hands, AA & KK.* * I'm talking in theory, but in the real world, he may well call you with anything. I get Called VERY light on here, as you can imagine, so I'm kinda used to it. One guy called me for 54 x BB with Q-8, all-in pre!
Posted by Tikay10

I thought you were bluffing, what can I say, ;-)

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Name the hands:

In Response to Re: Name the hands : I thought you were bluffing, what can I say, ;-)
Posted by MereNovice

I was. With KQ, probably!

mr_mbro

Hi Guys
Thanks for the replies, here we go.
I pushed with AK Diamonds, why, well this player had shown that he chased gutshots and was willing to go in with none premium cards, but when he insta called it thought, oh sh, sry oh no AA. But no, to my surprise he called with A10 off.
He did hit his 3 outer but hey ho.
I look on the game like this, i dont make that call myself, and was happy when the cards went over but this is how my lucks going lately.
I put him on a mid pair or ak,aq. My mistake was forgetting how he had played previously, MY FAULT.

mr_mbro

Hi
My other question is(and not trying to have a go at their play).
How many of you make that call? Given the stage of the tourney.
col

Tikay10

A-Ten does not surprise me at all Col. Many players play A-T as you & I play A-K, with never a thought as to being dominated by A-J, A-Q, or A-K, & thus on a 3 outer.

This is not just on Sky Poker though - it's pretty much universal, Live & Online.

Praise be that there are technically inept players around.

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Name the hands:

Hi My other question is(and not trying to have a go at their play). How many of you make that call? Given the stage of the tourney. col
Posted by mr_mbro

At that stage of the play, given the Blinds & Stacks?

Never, never, never. Never.

But plenty do, thank goodness. I don't Call there with A-J or AQ, either.

I might - might - call with A-K there, but if I thought I had an edge over the field, I'd Pass A-K in a heartbeat in his position, never mind A-T.

PS - In a Live event this weekend, with £29,000 to the Winner, I was double average but managed to CALL all-in with A-K, & got busted.. But that was a totally different scenario, involving meta-game stuff, & my edge on the field, if any, was thin.

MereNovice

In Response to Re: Name the hands:

Hi My other question is(and not trying to have a go at their play). How many of you make that call? Given the stage of the tourney. col
Posted by mr_mbro

Well, it is ahead of KQ so I guess it has some merit. ;-)

JingleMa

I certainly couldn't have made that call with A10, nor do I think, anyone should, unless of course the two of you had some serious history and were playing each other rather than your cards and positions etc. (which I don't believe was the case here).

I thought you had 99 - QQ and he either had AK or the overpair as he snap called.

As it was, you made the right play and his call was poor imo.