Omaha hand is the nuts going to be good enough to hold from the flop?

Batkin88

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
GUTNUTDRAW	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£44.74
toro666	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£49.50
	Your hole cards	A 10 Q Q
Batkin88	Raise		£1.75	£2.50	£116.03
DEXTROBLOC	Call		£1.75	£4.25	£82.54
goodylad21	Call		£1.75	£6.00	£79.41
THE_FACE	Fold
GUTNUTDRAW	Call		£1.50	£7.50	£43.24
toro666	Call		£1.25	£8.75	£48.25
Flop
		6 Q 8
GUTNUTDRAW	Check
toro666	Check
Batkin88	Check
DEXTROBLOC	Bet		£4.38	£13.13	£78.16
goodylad21	Raise		£14.00	£27.13	£65.41
GUTNUTDRAW	Fold
toro666	All-in		£48.25	£75.38	£0.00
Batkin88	??????

Batkin88

I have hit this flop so well but then all this action occurs! I know i have currently got the best hand but i could potentially be taking this 4 way with straights flushes over pairs which could hit a set and house up.
Is there ever any grounds for folding here? Or do you take it 4 way and cross your fingers?

AMYBR

I doubt its going 4 way with the jam.

If you cant call here I think you need to drop down, as the only reason not to call is fearing opponent binks.

Folding the nuts is never going to be profitable.

I know what your saying, know what you potentially expect to see, but IMO you have to grit your teeth and call bud.

corn_rat22

I call, if you can afford to, if not, yeah drop down, but you have the nuts, even if it is 79C your against, your still favorite, they could have 79C and an underset, i go broke here

grantorino

I dont know much about omaha, but there are situations where you can fold the nuts, its usually the nut straight though afaik.

I think this is prob a clear call though, you have redraws to the boat and a backdoor nfd as well

labrat64

IMO i think i'm shoving here regardless. Kudos if you managed to find a fold, but really couldn't see me doing it.

GREGHOGG

i wouldnt even consider folding here. this isnt a situation where we can fold the nuts imo because we can also house up.

I would say one of them has the nut fd and the other could have an underset, so dodge clubs and the pot is yours.

I think this will be a 3 way, rather than a 4 way all in usually.

Please tell me you didnt fold?? What did they have as a matter of interest? thanks

TommyD

Ok, to those saying to consider a fold here is needing to drop down, this is completely awful advice.  Yes we have the nuts when it comes to hand rankings at this stage but we are actually a dog against a number of hands which show up here (for instance, if someone has J,T,9,7 two spades, they are a marginal favourite for the hand).  That's against just one opponent, let alone three.

Not saying I fold though.  We have a problem as I think a number of our extensions are dead (I'm putting Toro on an underset, discarding 2 extensions and killing the 3rd).  Our nightmare situation is both undersets are out there as well as the combinations for a perfect/huge wrap and the flush draw among the three holdings.  Bottom set may fold giving us one extension back but we have some serious problems here if all of the draws call and most of our extensions are dead.

However this is a problem of our own making.  I cannot describe in words how much I hate our check.  Sub the 6 Clubs for the 2 Spades and I might, but only might, trap check.  We should lead this board then folding is not an option.

As played I seriously consider folding, but probably sigh jam.  If you think I should play lower that's your opinion.

Batkin88

I personally am working on my nl holdem game as confident with my omaha game (And money is not an issue in my poker plays) I couldn't find a fold but was wondering if there was ever grounds for the fold.
It did go three way and will post hand below

Batkin88

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
GUTNUTDRAW	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£44.74
toro666	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£49.50
	Your hole cards	A 10 Q Q
Batkin88	Raise		£1.75	£2.50	£116.03
DEXTROBLOC	Call		£1.75	£4.25	£82.54
goodylad21	Call		£1.75	£6.00	£79.41
THE_FACE	Fold
GUTNUTDRAW	Call		£1.50	£7.50	£43.24
toro666	Call		£1.25	£8.75	£48.25
Flop
		6 Q 8
GUTNUTDRAW	Check
toro666	Check
Batkin88	Check
DEXTROBLOC	Bet		£4.38	£13.13	£78.16
goodylad21	Raise		£14.00	£27.13	£65.41
GUTNUTDRAW	Fold
toro666	All-in		£48.25	£75.38	£0.00
Batkin88	All-in		£116.03	£191.41	£0.00
DEXTROBLOC	Fold
goodylad21	All-in		£65.41	£256.82	£0.00
Batkin88	Unmatched bet		£36.62	£220.20	£36.62
toro666	Show	6 5 J 6
Batkin88	Show	A 10 Q Q
goodylad21	Show	10 8 8 J
Turn
		A
River
		4
Batkin88	Win	Three Queens	£219.30		£255.92

TommyD

In Response to Re: Omaha hand is the nuts going to be good enough to hold from the flop?:

I personally am working on my nl holdem game as confident with my omaha game (And money is not an issue in my poker plays) I couldn't find a fold but was wondering if there was ever grounds for the fold. It did go three way and will post hand below
Posted by Batkin88

Batkin, what was the thinking behind the trap check on the flop?

Batkin88

TOMMYD thanks for the post the check was to induce a bet then come over the top big but when all this happened i had to re evaluate. Ended up ok because the player who folded would of hit a str8 as he had str8 flush draw aswell. (Well thats what he said)
I did sigh jam and closed my eyes lol

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Omaha hand is the nuts going to be good enough to hold from the flop?:

Ok, to those saying to consider a fold here is needing to drop down, this is completely awful advice.  Yes we have the nuts when it comes to hand rankings at this stage but we are actually a dog against a number of hands which show up here (for instance, if someone has J,T,9,7 two spades, they are a marginal favourite for the hand).  That's against just one opponent, let alone three. Cant assume this pot goes more than HU, infact I think once OP'ster calls no one else is likely to get involved.  Your key word here is marginal, in that they are a marginal fav, are we happy to fold here with  dead money in pot vs oppents top end range marginally beating us, particularly when we have potential to improve? Not saying I fold though.  We have a problem as I think a number of our extensions are dead (I'm putting Toro on an underset, discarding 2 extensions and killing the 3rd).  Our nightmare situation is both undersets are out there as well as the combinations for a perfect/huge wrap and the flush draw among the three holdings.  Bottom set may fold giving us one extension back but we have some serious problems here if all of the draws call and most of our extensions are dead. This is so, but equally we are only afraid of the binkage when there is a reasonable likelyhood opponent jams under set or two big draws.  However this is a problem of our own making.  I cannot describe in words how much I hate our check.  Sub the 6 Clubs for the 2 Spades and I might, but only might, trap check.  We should lead this board then folding is not an option. As played I seriously consider folding, but probably sigh jam.  If you think I should play lower that's your opinion.  I agree that opponent top end range is a worry, but the action kills much of the action behind, with a view to OP'sr and jammer going HU.  The reason I say if you cant call to considor dropping down is that the only reason to fold is fearing opponent binks, we are only folding to draws, with reasonable equity to improve and nullify draws. 
Posted by TommyD

TommyD

To address your points AMYBR

1)  Probably a benefit of knowing the players I guess, but I know Goody is calling this a high percentage of the time.  My only maybe was the initial flop bettor, but I'm confident this is going 3 way at least.  My example was an 'off te top of the head' situation to emphasize the point that even though we can have the nuts on the flop, we can still be a dog in a HU pot.

2)  There is a massive likelihood that there is at least one underset here, someone is flushing and there is a huge wrap draw.  As it turns out the straight draws out in this instance are pretty much best case scenario.

3)  Considering the fold is not due to fearing binkage.  In fact if I was up against the hand I used as an example you can't call it binkage when they are a favourite.  And I don't think 'moving down' should ever be suggested as a solution except to BRM questions.  It was a fair question in the OP IMO.

grantorino

Tommy,  while we might be a dog are we not alwys going to be getting the odds to get it in here unless we are massively deep? (I dont play enough omaha to know but surely we put in a nice bit of our stack before we know we may be an underdog, and prob not a big one at that.)

Edit, just noticed he checked, must learn to read.Still there can still be some dead money here

Talon

 This is actually a very interesting hand that conjures up several interesting points.

  Ok firstly lets look at the board on the flop. We have top set on a very coordinated board and also have 3 other players showing interest in the pot. This means that we are potentially up against 18 hands trying to outdraw us by the river with only one absolute nut card available to us.

  So we have to consider the ranges of hands that are interested in this flop. Underset, wrap draws, flushdraws, straight flush draws and of course the almost obligatory cant fold an overpair as well as 2 pair type hands. With the potential 18 hands against us all of these have to be brought into the equation giving us a large amount of cards to avoid by the river. The only circimstance that this would be a snap call is if it were HU or certain of being HU.Even in that situation you are not certain to be a big favourite. 3 or 4 way you wouls definitely not be favourite to win so the decision becomes a lot harder. So for me this is not a snap call or snap fold but would be a very considered and reluctant call. The i have the nuts at the moment get it all in is holdem mentality and needs to be tempered whilst playing omaha because you are never as big a favourite.


  The second point of interest in this hand is the betting. I like the raise preflop with a good hand but i hated your line on the flop. The flop has come down very draw heavy and you decide to check top set hoping to get action behind. What if they had checked behind trying to hit draws they now have great odds to do so. So by checking you increase your chance of being outdrawn and miss an opportunity to build up the pot whilst holding the best hand.There are two betting traits that need to be avoided in omaha and that is min betting/raising and the checkraise.You should always be looking at doing your own betting and not relying on others this of course include doing the so called donk bet.

  congrats on the nice pot and i hope some of what i have said helps.

goodylad21

I need to learn to run better lol.

Omaha is such a sick game

donkeyplop

You had the best hand when the money went in!

Like you say close your eyes and shout HOOOOOOOOOOOOLD!

Batkin88

Talon completely agree with everything.... the check was based on table mentality there was no way that this was going check check check with any cards it was soooo aggro lol
Thanks for the advice all

AMYBR

From what I've seen Talon definately knows his stuff Omaha wise so I'd bet safe money that he's right aswell.

Good thread.

rancid

don't like the check on the flop
omhaa is so draw heavy top set is not the nuts, equal to TPTK  in hold em

charge whoever wants to pay

as played i am not folding, 4 is a worry but hey ho