call or raise the river?

pod1

player had just joined thegwolfSmall blind £0.25£0.25£57.73davethe101Big blind £0.50£0.75£32.82 Your hole cards55   oakley04Call £0.50£1.25£22.95TonyPNutsFold    pod1Raise £2.00£3.25£45.80varneyFold    gwolfCall £1.75£5.00£55.98davethe101Call £1.50£6.50£31.32oakley04Call £1.50£8.00£21.45Flop  6J5   gwolfCheck    davethe101Check    oakley04Check    pod1Bet £4.00£12.00£41.80gwolfCall £4.00£16.00£51.98davethe101Fold    oakley04Fold    Turn  K   gwolfCheck    pod1Bet £8.00£24.00£33.80gwolfCall £8.00£32.00£43.98River  7   gwolfBet £16.00£48.00£27.98 table so no reads

Dudeskin8

Bet £6 on flop.

£12 on turn.

Shove river.

Win moniez.

pod1

i agree with the bet sizing dude, but wouldnt you be worried about his betting pattern, for a shove at the  river?

Dudeskin8

I wouldn't be making bizarre half-pot bets on two streets with a set so wouldn't find myself in this problem.

34 got there, can't see what else beats you, maybe 89 but come on.

pod1

a) they aint bizzare bet sizes, and b)the only problem i have have is to call or raise , not fold. is this not building and controlling the pot?

pod1

this one was the problem PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancedavethe101Small blind £0.25£0.25£74.30foxhatBig blind £0.50£0.75£45.43 Your hole cards33   samgriffinFold    pod1Raise £1.50£2.25£48.42varneyFold    gwolfCall £1.50£3.75£62.92davethe101Call £1.25£5.00£73.05foxhatCall £1.00£6.00£44.43Flop  J32   davethe101Check    foxhatCheck    pod1Bet £3.00£9.00£45.42gwolfCall £3.00£12.00£59.92davethe101Fold    foxhatFold    Turn  4   pod1Bet £6.00£18.00£39.42gwolfCall £6.00£24.00£53.92River  10   pod1Check    gwolfBet £18.00£42.00£35.92pod1Call £18.00£60.00£21.42gwolfShowQA   pod1Show33   pod1WinThree 3s£58.20 £79.62PrevClose windowNextlol!!

waller02

i'm by no means a reg cash player but for your 1st hand i agree with dudes bet sizing but i'd be more inclined just to call, the fact he check calls both flop and turn then leads out on the river puzzles me........i would just call but i'm quite nitty

pod1

i am to waller and i did!gwolfSmall blind £0.25£0.25£57.73davethe101Big blind £0.50£0.75£32.82 Your hole cards55   oakley04Call £0.50£1.25£22.95TonyPNutsFold    pod1Raise £2.00£3.25£45.80varneyFold    gwolfCall £1.75£5.00£55.98davethe101Call £1.50£6.50£31.32oakley04Call £1.50£8.00£21.45Flop  6J5   gwolfCheck    davethe101Check    oakley04Check    pod1Bet £4.00£12.00£41.80gwolfCall £4.00£16.00£51.98davethe101Fold    oakley04Fold    Turn  K   gwolfCheck    pod1Bet £8.00£24.00£33.80gwolfCall £8.00£32.00£43.98River  7   gwolfBet £16.00£48.00£27.98pod1Call £16.00£64.00£17.80gwolfShow78   pod1Show55   pod1WinThree 5s£62.20 £80.00PrevClose windowNext

DOHHHHHHH

You're still not betting big enough m8.

Why would you wanna pot control when you flop a set?

waller02

hey dohhhhhhh, i fully agree with dudes and your points on the bet sizing but what would you have done on the river??

i dont disagree with dudes post cos as seen pod was good, but i'm also asking this for myself, is the call too nitty??? cos as i said, i would just have called in that spot but what is the most +ev move? or are both acceptable?

jakally

Jam the river...... he could have made a straight, or even a set of sevens, but some 2 pairs, King high flush draws etc.... that call a raise.

Bet bigger on the flop.... 60 - 65% pot is good, both for value, and bluffs, and then a bit bigger on the turn.... 65 - 75% of pot.

Therefore £5 flop, £13 turn would be  fine.

Half pot bets are ok for MTT's where stacks are shallower, but in cash games you have  to work a  bit harder to get stacks in.

grantorino

pod, how many times have you posted hands where you flopped monsters and kept betting half pot, agrred it was bad and still you keep doing it

1. Bet bigger flop,turn to make shoving river easy. Even if you bet 5 on flop, the pot becomes 18 on turn, 11 there makes it 40 and you are left with an easy shove of around 29 on the river. Because pot sizes increase exponentially, slightly bigger bets every street make a significant difference to pot size. I would bet bigger than the sizings I gave there and you would need to if pot was hu on flop. When you flop a monster think about your sizing to see can you get the stacks in by river without putting in any massive overbet anywhere

As played easy shove, you are beat nearly never

2. Same point on sizing applies. Definitely bet river readless

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: call or raise the river?:

a) they aint bizzare bet sizes, and b)the only problem i have have is to call or raise , not fold. is this not building and controlling the pot?
Posted by pod1

A) They are lolz.

Control the pot, you having a giraffe ?

pod1

 i just dont see bottom set as "monsters". yes i agree bigger bet sizing will increase the pot exponentially and will make a shove on the river easier, but the amount of times the strength of your hand changes down the streets i have just found it easier to keep it ticking over. jakally prob hit the nail on the head, i just gonna have to work a bit harder to get the stacks in. does anyone know what % of the time bottom set post flop is good at the river? ps dude, seriously! cockney slang, it aint a good look lolz

Dudeskin8

Why are you worried about losing, are the limits too high for you or something ?

When you flop a set your only goal is to get your stack in the middle asap and on that board you were given a great chance, as dry as they come.

Just bet BIG hands BIG mate, yowl dow gowd then.

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: call or raise the river?:

 i just dont see bottom set as "monsters". yes i agree bigger bet sizing will increase the pot exponentially and will make a shove on the river easier, but the amount of times the strength of your hand changes down the streets i have just found it easier to keep it ticking over. jakally prob hit the nail on the head, i just gonna have to work a bit harder to get the stacks in. does anyone know what % of the time bottom set post flop is good at the river? ps dude, seriously! cockney slang, it aint a good look lolz
Posted by pod1

It's the monster of all monsters !!!!!

Waller I would shove the river with that set in hand 1, it's a set innit and there's no flushes out and no pairs on the board. His line is wierd, but we aren't THAT deep, we only have 17 quid behind and his bet is 16, I just jammit, he will feel priced in to call with loads that we beat.

pod1

its not worried about losing dude, its just trying to stay in control of the hand. i watch sooo many people spew off money left right and centre with marginal hands at best and it makes me cringe. both those hands i put up, yes i shoulda/ coulda made more, but they were still 2 60 quid pots that were taken with little risk (river on 2nd hand slight exception). i started play cash in nov last year at nl 10 and have worked up to nl40/50 and feeling comfortable there (some big bumps along the way mind) i know i have some big leaks in my game, but it aint all bad.

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: call or raise the river?:

its not worried about losing dude, its just trying to stay in control of the hand. i watch sooo many people spew off money left right and centre with marginal hands at best and it makes me cringe. both those hands i put up, yes i shoulda/ coulda made more, but they were still 2 60 quid pots that were taken with little risk (river on 2nd hand slight exception). i started play cash in nov last year at nl 10 and have worked up to nl40/50 and feeling comfortable there (some big bumps along the way mind) i know i have some big leaks in my game, but it aint all bad.
Posted by pod1

A set is marginal, what the hell you waiting for ?

Yes £60 is good but you need to get the MAX in these spots and if you're leaving behind £17 every time as in here you win less long term imo.

Also now I know this is stupid but why can't you bet more than half-pot, I mean like I seen these sort of hands posted around 3 months ago but yet now you still bet half-pot, it doesn't take much effort to click the 3/4 pot button lolz.

percival09

Alot of the time there isn't anything wrong with half pot bets / but in this situation you are playing for stacks and the most efficient way to do so is to create a pot which makes a river shove easy / so to do this you have to bet significant amounts on both the flop and the turn

so i agree with above, if you played the hand optimally you could have just got it in on the river easily, but as played i think you probably just have to call readless / missed value

yb

in the 33 hand b/c and b/f are both far better than c/c imo

pod1

good point yb

Dudeskin8

33 you half pot bet aswell, gotta be 60-75% pot bets for me.