Maybe you,me are wrong?....not them

DAVEYZZ

There is so much moaning in poker about "donks" and the new buzzword
"window licker" that its made think.

The game has changed so much in the last 5 years that i have been playing.
The pure volume of players has risen by millions due to the online explosion and the standard of play has improved immensely imo
(and according to almost every pro).
So how do these "donks" keep winning?well the short answer is they dont.

sharkscope the next "donk" that gambles with 8/2 off suit(whether they hit or not) and you will most probably see a loosing player....you may occasionally see a loosing player who got lucky(like me) and is ahead.

but the game is so different nowadays that 5 betting all in with rag ace
seems to be the norm(see wsop main event) so has the game evolved full circle to the point where the "kidz" of today are conditioned to 3/4/5 bet at regular intervals?.

I think the aggression aspect has been overstated to the point of players never wanting to give up a pot to the point of shoving in the hope of a fold or a runner runner bink.
people who moan about getting outdrawn are always told"the luck/odds even themselves out in the end"which is true only to the extent that you are a serious player who is likely to play over half a million hands.

So has the game has evolved to the point of having 5 or 6 lags and the odd maniac on a full ring table and maybe in the end the game is coming down to who gets the most good luck as opposed to the most bad beats?

gl,dave

TRIP5

Excellent points...very well made!!!!!!!

xx

AMYBR

theres some good points here and I've often wondered the same.

Bad play isnt neccessarily so if done with a plan showing success over volume, if you know what I mean.

DOHHHHHHH

The aggressive super laggy strategy is only required when you are looking to find an edge on skilled playvrs.

You're looking to find an edge in a game. Simply playing ABC at a table of high stakes competent/skillfull/experienced regs will not work, you'll struggle to survive in the game and probably break even at best. Players aren't making many mistakes for you to take advantage of, if any at all.

You'll find that at levels where there are lots of fish/bad players, solid ABC poker will still win the money.

Show me a super laggy winning reg below 50nl on sky poker.............

I can't think of 1.

grantorino

no idea why you posted this here, also not too sure who the them in your title is

top level tournament poker is extremely aggressive. Its due to very good players trying to gain an edge on other very good players. You start opening light, so I start 3betting light, so you start 4betting light etc. They have a limited time and stack so they cant wait for big hands as there are less donks who will pay them off. If other players are playing like this you cant really just sit back and wait for hands, you adjust or get gobbled up.

Also what these guys are doing when they 5bet shove junk is a million miles away from what the fish in low stakes online poker are doing. They are not just sticking their money in hopiung to bink, they know other players range can well have lots of junk and he can maybe fold. Fish just go lets gamble even though this tag hasnt 3bet once in 100 hands

I agree this will make variance increase, but its only going to really apply in the bigger games, and the better players will still win ver time

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: Maybe you,me are wrong?....not them:

no idea why you posted this here, also not too sure who the them in your title is top level tournament poker is extremely aggressive. Its due to very good players trying to gain an edge on other very good players. You start opening light, so I start 3betting light, so you start 4betting light etc. They have a limited time and stack so they cant wait for big hands as there are less donks who will pay them off. If other players are playing like this you cant really just sit back and wait for hands, you adjust or get gobbled up. Also what these guys are doing when they 5bet shove junk is a million miles away from what the fish in low stakes online poker are doing. They are not just sticking their money in hopiung to bink, they know other players range can well have lots of junk and he can maybe fold. Fish just go lets gamble even though this tag hasnt 3bet once in 100 hands I agree this will make variance increase, but its only going to really apply in the bigger games, and the better players will still win ver time
Posted by grantorino

very gd post xxx

demondave

In Response to Maybe you,me are wrong?....not them:

There is so much moaning in poker about "donks" and the new buzzword "window licker" that its made think. The game has changed so much in the last 5 years that i have been playing. The pure volume of players has risen by millions due to the online explosion and the standard of play has improved immensely imo (and according to almost every pro). So how do these "donks" keep winning?well the short answer is they dont. sharkscope the next "donk" that gambles with 8/2 off suit(whether they hit or not) and you will most probably see a loosing player....you may occasionally see a loosing player who got lucky(like me) and is ahead. but the game is so different nowadays that 5 betting all in with rag ace seems to be the norm(see wsop main event) so has the game evolved full circle to the point where the "kidz" of today are conditioned to 3/4/5 bet at regular intervals?. I think the aggression aspect has been overstated to the point of players never wanting to give up a pot to the point of shoving in the hope of a fold or a runner runner bink. people who moan about getting outdrawn are always told"the luck/odds even themselves out in the end"which is true only to the extent that you are a serious player who is likely to play over half a million hands. So has the game has evolved to the point of having 5 or 6 lags and the odd maniac on a full ring table and maybe in the end the game is coming down to who gets the most good luck as opposed to the most bad beats? gl,dave
Posted by DAVEYZZ[/QUOTE

8 2 off suit is rubbish hand however 8 3 suited is a very good hand (see below)

Hand History #392840064 (11:45 17/07/2011)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
alexmck13	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£21.21
demondave	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£14.18
CERTACIT0	Big blind		£0.50	£1.25	£19.50
	Your hole cards	9 Q
tayah2704	Call		£0.50	£1.75	£10.50
__Aces__	Raise		£1.53	£3.28	£28.00
CERTACIT0	Call		£1.03	£4.31	£18.47
MalckieBoy	Call		£1.53	£5.84	£18.05
alexmck13	Fold
demondave	Call		£1.03	£6.87	£13.15
tayah2704	All-in		£10.50	£17.37	£0.00
__Aces__	Fold
CERTACIT0	Call		£9.47	£26.84	£9.00
MalckieBoy	All-in		£18.05	£44.89	£0.00
demondave	Fold
CERTACIT0	Call		£8.58	£53.47	£0.42
tayah2704	Show	A J
CERTACIT0	Show	3 8
MalckieBoy	Show	A K
Flop
		8 3 7
Turn
		4
River
		9
CERTACIT0	Win	Two Pairs, 8s and 3s	£51.67

demondave

In Response to Re: Maybe you,me are wrong?....not them:

In Response to Maybe you,me are wrong?....not them :

There is so much moaning in poker about "donks" and the new buzzword "window licker" that its made think. The game has changed so much in the last 5 years that i have been playing. The pure volume of players has risen by millions due to the online explosion and the standard of play has improved immensely imo (and according to almost every pro). So how do these "donks" keep winning?well the short answer is they dont. sharkscope the next "donk" that gambles with 8/2 off suit(whether they hit or not) and you will most probably see a loosing player....you may occasionally see a loosing player who got lucky(like me) and is ahead. but the game is so different nowadays that 5 betting all in with rag ace seems to be the norm(see wsop main event) so has the game evolved full circle to the point where the "kidz" of today are conditioned to 3/4/5 bet at regular intervals?. I think the aggression aspect has been overstated to the point of players never wanting to give up a pot to the point of shoving in the hope of a fold or a runner runner bink. people who moan about getting outdrawn are always told"the luck/odds even themselves out in the end"which is true only to the extent that you are a serious player who is likely to play over half a million hands. So has the game has evolved to the point of having 5 or 6 lags and the odd maniac on a full ring table and maybe in the end the game is coming down to who gets the most good luck as opposed to the most bad beats? gl,dave Posted by DAVEYZZ[/QUOTE 8 2 off suit is rubbish hand however 8 3 suited is a very good hand (see below) Hand History #392840064 (11:45 17/07/2011) Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance alexmck13 Small blind   £0.25 £0.25 £21.21 demondave Big blind   £0.50 £0.75 £14.18 CERTACIT0 Big blind   £0.50 £1.25 £19.50   Your hole cards 9 Q       tayah2704 Call   £0.50 £1.75 £10.50 __Aces__ Raise   £1.53 £3.28 £28.00 CERTACIT0 Call   £1.03 £4.31 £18.47 MalckieBoy Call   £1.53 £5.84 £18.05 alexmck13 Fold         demondave Call   £1.03 £6.87 £13.15 tayah2704 All-in   £10.50 £17.37 £0.00 __Aces__ Fold         CERTACIT0 Call   £9.47 £26.84 £9.00 MalckieBoy All-in   £18.05 £44.89 £0.00 demondave Fold         CERTACIT0 Call   £8.58 £53.47 £0.42 tayah2704 Show A J       CERTACIT0 Show 3 8       MalckieBoy Show A K       Flop     8 3 7       Turn     4       River     9       CERTACIT0 Win Two Pairs, 8s and 3s £51.67
Posted by demondave

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
alexmck13	Small blind		£0.25	£0.25	£21.21
demondave	Big blind		£0.50	£0.75	£14.18
CERTACIT0	Big blind		£0.50	£1.25	£19.50
	Your hole cards	9 Q
tayah2704	Call		£0.50	£1.75	£10.50
__Aces__	Raise		£1.53	£3.28	£28.00
CERTACIT0	Call		£1.03	£4.31	£18.47
MalckieBoy	Call		£1.53	£5.84	£18.05
alexmck13	Fold
demondave	Call		£1.03	£6.87	£13.15
tayah2704	All-in		£10.50	£17.37	£0.00
__Aces__	Fold
CERTACIT0	Call		£9.47	£26.84	£9.00
MalckieBoy	All-in		£18.05	£44.89	£0.00
demondave	Fold
CERTACIT0	Call		£8.58	£53.47	£0.42
tayah2704	Show	A J
CERTACIT0	Show	3 8
MalckieBoy	Show	A K
Flop
		8 3 7
Turn
		4
River
		9
CERTACIT0	Win	Two Pairs, 8s and 3s	£51.67

bigal36903

In Response to Re: Maybe you,me are wrong?....not them:

In Response to Maybe you,me are wrong?....not them :

There is so much moaning in poker about "donks" and the new buzzword "window licker" that its made think. The game has changed so much in the last 5 years that i have been playing. The pure volume of players has risen by millions due to the online explosion and the standard of play has improved immensely imo (and according to almost every pro). So how do these "donks" keep winning?well the short answer is they dont. sharkscope the next "donk" that gambles with 8/2 off suit(whether they hit or not) and you will most probably see a loosing player....you may occasionally see a loosing player who got lucky(like me) and is ahead. but the game is so different nowadays that 5 betting all in with rag ace seems to be the norm(see wsop main event) so has the game evolved full circle to the point where the "kidz" of today are conditioned to 3/4/5 bet at regular intervals?. I think the aggression aspect has been overstated to the point of players never wanting to give up a pot to the point of shoving in the hope of a fold or a runner runner bink. people who moan about getting outdrawn are always told"the luck/odds even themselves out in the end"which is true only to the extent that you are a serious player who is likely to play over half a million hands. So has the game has evolved to the point of having 5 or 6 lags and the odd maniac on a full ring table and maybe in the end the game is coming down to who gets the most good luck as opposed to the most bad beats? gl,dave Posted by DAVEYZZ[/QUOTE 8 2 off suit is rubbish hand however 8 3 suited is a very good hand (see below) Hand History #392840064 (11:45 17/07/2011) Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance alexmck13 Small blind   £0.25 £0.25 £21.21 demondave Big blind   £0.50 £0.75 £14.18 CERTACIT0 Big blind   £0.50 £1.25 £19.50   Your hole cards 9 Q       tayah2704 Call   £0.50 £1.75 £10.50 __Aces__ Raise   £1.53 £3.28 £28.00 CERTACIT0 Call   £1.03 £4.31 £18.47 MalckieBoy Call   £1.53 £5.84 £18.05 alexmck13 Fold         demondave Call   £1.03 £6.87 £13.15 tayah2704 All-in   £10.50 £17.37 £0.00 __Aces__ Fold         CERTACIT0 Call   £9.47 £26.84 £9.00 MalckieBoy All-in   £18.05 £44.89 £0.00 demondave Fold         CERTACIT0 Call   £8.58 £53.47 £0.42 tayah2704 Show A J       CERTACIT0 Show 3 8       MalckieBoy Show A K       Flop     8 3 7       Turn     4       River     9       CERTACIT0 Win Two Pairs, 8s and 3s £51.67
Posted by demondave

sorry to say but in my mind, who calls all in with that rubbish,.........

an idiot, maybe the first guy had played badly and gone all-in with rubbish, but 8-3 os or suited is an auto fold to an all-in 20 times bb

djblacke04

Actually , u may say that,'who calls with that rubbish'  but i was a t the casino on saturday night,and a table was broken and half of them came over to our table,this spanish looking kiddie sat down and first hand it went 'Raise,he went reraise,original raiser went all in, he said call.......

cards were flipped over, AJ v 35 hearts.......yeah reriase and call all in with 35 hearts,and yes the flop went 5 xx turn 6 river 8 and that was that....

next hand went raise and call,

flop came A Q 5.......same kiddie raised,and BB went all in ,he said call, cards were flipped and he showed KJ

calls an all in with gutshot....BB had A10

needless to say...he didnt make it,..he got up and said well that was fun for the first tournement i ever played....

DAVEYZZ

In Response to Re: Maybe you,me are wrong?....not them:

Actually , u may say that,'who calls with that rubbish'  but i was a t the casino on saturday night,and a table was broken and half of them came over to our table,this spanish looking kiddie sat down and first hand it went 'Raise,he went reraise,original raiser went all in, he said call....... cards were flipped over, AJ v 35 hearts.......yeah reriase and call all in with 35 hearts,and yes the flop went 5 xx turn 6 river 8 and that was that.... next hand went raise and call, flop came A Q 5.......same kiddie raised,and BB went all in ,he said call, cards were flipped and he showed KJ calls an all in with gutshot....BB had A10 needless to say...he didnt make it,..he got up and said well that was fun for the first tournement i ever played....
Posted by djblacke04

this is what a lot of players dont take into account......yes he won the first all in and the guy most probably went off moaning about donks "always winning"....but like you say next hand he is out.....no consolation to 1st guy tho

AMYBR

All i could think reading that post was ch ching.

Exactly.