Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final

Mohican

Just watched Frietez announce a raise(check raise) on the river with a boat but immediately say I meant to call and the chips he's put in is just the amount to call. TD is called over and says that Frietez can only now min raise as his verbal declaration counts but also tells Yanayt that Frietez has done this move before and last time had the nuts.
Yanayt calls with top pair  and the whole table sees the massive angleshoot Frietez has done which tilts the most of the table apart from Yanayt who just said 'meh' in an interview after.
 So is he a 'douche bag' for such a blatant move or is his angle shoot a valid play?
 For me, he should just check raise the river especially as he tried to blame the mix up on his 'bad english' when talking to the TD. He's lost the respect of other players and I think it's a pretty disgusting move especially with the nuts.

YOUNG_GUN

Que??

DOHHHHHHH

I saw it and couldn't believe it! How was he allowed to get away with it????

It tilted me watching it....

The analyst was abit critical of the KQ guy for not snap-folding, but if he's never seen him do it before, can he really fold to a min raise? It has to be hard for him to believe also......

grantorino

Not well up on live rulings, but my 2c. I may be wrong on all of this

Havent seen it but from what op says, TDs ruling that its a minraise sounds correct. Not sure what the situation is if TD has seen him do this before or also if its appropriate for him to give info about villains hand to other player (even though I kinda see why if he did it as an angleshoot before)

Its a definite angleshoot and out of order imo, bad english lol, these guys know how to say check, bet, call, raise, all in. Can he be punished for it, I'm not sure under what rule he could.

AcidMan27

Yeah this was below the belt for me.

J-Hartigan

For the record, I think Thomas Kremser handled the situation perfectly.

You cannot penalise the guy for two reasons: what he's done isn't actually against the written rules of the game, and it's very difficult to prove that his "mistake" was intentional.

I think Eugene was a bit silly to call. Tales of Ivan's angle-shooting have become something of legend on the circuit, since he first pulled off this move at EPT Copenhagen in February. Eugene had actually been warned (by a friend) about this specific player's antics before the tournament even began!

SolarCarro

Great show as usual James

Freitez - Poor player with shocking etiquette, disrespectful over celebrations when he got lucky!

He's a big reason we all need Dr Dre's

Dave

unknown_username

Ive Just read his profile on pokerpages.
In answer to the question if I could change anything in the world What would it be?
He's put "injustice"
not sure whether his English is as dodgy as his morales!
douche bag in my opinion

penguin7

I was shocked by this, but felt Thomas  Kremser handled it superbly, as well as he could within the rules of poker.

In some ways it was good that the min raise was called, as it revealed that Thomas was 100% correct.

I would not wish to sit at a table with this guy.

Would tournament organisers ever blacklist him?

grantorino

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final:

For the record, I think Thomas Kremser handled the situation perfectly. You cannot penalise the guy for two reasons:  what he's done isn't actually against the written rules of the game, and it's very difficult to prove that his "mistake" was intentional. I think Eugene was a bit silly to call. Tales of Ivan's angle-shooting have become something of legend on the circuit, since he first pulled off this move at EPT Copenhagen in February. Eugene had actually been warned (by a friend) about this specific player's antics before the tournament even began!
Posted by J-Hartigan

James, do you think its ok for Kremser to tell other guy Ivan had nuts last time he did this? I can see why he did it, sounds a bit dodgy though to me.
 
Also, while I see he prob cant be penalised, ordinary live players are punished for what are clearly mistakes all the time , stringbetting comes to mind (I know the reason for the stringbetting rule, just not sure your reasoning Ivan cant be punished because it might be a mistake holds)

tiercel

Hi James . You mention the written rules of the game. Are they posted somewhere so that anyone can refer to them as a point of arbitration or do they hang somewhere in the hyperspace / time continuum onless to be seen by the tardis ?
It seems to me sometimes the rules depend on the user.



n Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final:

For the record, I think Thomas Kremser handled the situation perfectly. You cannot penalise the guy for two reasons:  what he's done isn't actually against the written rules of the game, and it's very difficult to prove that his "mistake" was intentional. I think Eugene was a bit silly to call. Tales of Ivan's angle-shooting have become something of legend on the circuit, since he first pulled off this move at EPT Copenhagen in February. Eugene had actually been warned (by a friend) about this specific player's antics before the tournament even began!
Posted by J-Hartigan

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final:

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final : James, do you think its ok for Kremser to tell other guy Ivan had nuts last time he did this? I can see why he did it, sounds a bit dodgy though to me.   Also, while I see he prob cant be penalised, ordinary live players are punished for what are clearly mistakes all the time , stringbetting comes to mind (I know the reason for the stringbetting rule, just not sure your reasoning Ivan cant be punished because it might be a mistake holds)
Posted by grantorino

As I wrote on another poker forum...

TK was probably frustrated that he couldn't impose a penalty for something he considered "so ugly." I guess he felt that advising Eugene on the history of his opponent was the fairest thing he could do.

Darntootin

Seems that Lucien Cohen's little plastic friend wasn't the only rat at the tables in Madrid.

Find it hard to believe that nothing can be done ("difficult to prove that his 'mistake' was intentional") when he has previous for the exact same thing from previous events (in addition to the incidents listed above I think James said he had done it THREE times @ EPT San Remo).

Scumbag!

aussie09

very poor behaviour, very.

angle shooting will go on, even online in the chat-box on skypoker

dislike freitez

good television...i hope it continues to be good

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final:

Hi James . You mention the written rules of the game. Are they posted somewhere so that anyone can refer to them as a point of arbitration or do they hang somewhere in the hyperspace / time continuum onless to be seen by the tardis ? It seems to me sometimes the rules depend on the user. n Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final :
Posted by tiercel

The rules are on the EPT website (Google is your friend) and are also published in the official magazine/booklet issued to each player at each event.

Rules for any major tournament are always considered guidelines, due to the situational nature of poker. What's important is that the Tournament Director makes a decision (which will always be subjective) he/she considers to be fair to all players and in the spirit and best interests of the game.

yuranASSet

Not very gentlemanly, however poker isn't a gentlemans game. A clear underhand tactic to take advantage of an inexperienced player.

Still a Douce but.

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final:

Seems that Lucien Cohen's little plastic friend wasn't the only rat at the tables in Madrid. Find it hard to believe that nothing can be done ("difficult to prove that his 'mistake' was intentional") when he has previous for the exact same thing from previous events (in addition to the incidents listed above I think James said he had done it THREE times @ EPT San Remo). Scumbag!
Posted by Darntootin

I know where you're coming from, but if you start issuing penalties on an international tour because you suspect (albeit with very good reason) that someone is faking poor English, it opens a pretty nasty can of worms!

tiercel

 Ta .  But, for the record ,  Google is not my friend, matey . Too much garbage ! I use Bing , cos their homepage has lots of pretty pictures . Be good !

 Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final:

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final : The rules are on the EPT website (Google is your friend) and are also published in the official magazine/booklet issued to each player at each event. Rules for any major tournament are always considered guidelines, due to the situational nature of poker. What's important is that the Tournament Director makes a decision (which will always be subjective) he/she considers to be fair to all players and in the spirit and best interests of the game.
Posted by J-Hartigan

aiken2001

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final:

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final : James, do you think its ok for Kremser to tell other guy Ivan had nuts last time he did this? I can see why he did it, sounds a bit dodgy though to me.  

Watched this last night and not only should he tell him but should have also given the option for the call to stand and given the information. The guy was blatently trying it on with the raise of i mean call trying to extract value from his opponent by looking weak with what was the nuts.

As for rules of the game its my understanding that every casino essentially has its own rules which are all similar. There is talk of the WSOP issueing a set of rules and trying to get them accepted as industry standard which would be excellent as then you would not be at the whim of some TD at lower level games who does not really know his left from his right.

tiercel

 Why not Mr. Skypokerboss  cannot Sky put the rules on site for referral or  provide a link to the EPT for easy access?



n Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final:

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final : Watched this last night and not only should he tell him but should have also given the option for the call to stand and given the information. The guy was blatently trying it on with the raise of i mean call trying to extract value from his opponent by looking weak with what was the nuts. As for rules of the game its my understanding that every casino essentially has its own rules which are all similar. There is talk of the WSOP issueing a set of rules and trying to get them accepted as industry standard which would be excellent as then you would not be at the whim of some TD at lower level games who does not really know his left from his right.
Posted by aiken2001

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final:

 Why not Mr. Skypokerboss  cannot Sky put the rules on site for referral or  provide a link to the EPT for easy access? n Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final :
Posted by tiercel

There's an obvious reason why I can't link to the EPT homepage on the Sky Poker forum!!!  That's why I suggested using Google - or an equivalent search engine

J-Hartigan

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final:

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final : Watched this last night and not only should he tell him but should have also given the option for the call to stand and given the information. The guy was blatently trying it on with the raise of i mean call trying to extract value from his opponent by looking weak with what was the nuts. As for rules of the game its my understanding that every casino essentially has its own rules which are all similar. There is talk of the WSOP issueing a set of rules and trying to get them accepted as industry standard which would be excellent as then you would not be at the whim of some TD at lower level games who does not really know his left from his right.
Posted by aiken2001

Would it then become standard for all countdowns to end on one rather than on zero?

monkey123

Im gonna try it in cardiff this weekend see how it goes down ;0)

donkeyplop

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final:

Seems that Lucien Cohen's little plastic friend wasn't the only rat at the tables in Madrid. Find it hard to believe that nothing can be done ("difficult to prove that his 'mistake' was intentional") when he has previous for the exact same thing from previous events (in addition to the incidents listed above I think James said he had done it THREE times @ EPT San Remo). Scumbag!
Posted by Darntootin

His rat is soooooooooooooooooo tilting!

If I was on a table with him I would stick it where the sun don't shine lol.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final:

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final : Watched this last night and not only should he tell him but should have also given the option for the call to stand and given the information. The guy was blatently trying it on with the raise of i mean call trying to extract value from his opponent by looking weak with what was the nuts.
Posted by aiken2001

The guy was obviously angleshooting and was completley out of order. Still not sure the TD should be giving out info on players possible holdings while a hand is in progress (I see why he did it, but it doesnt seem right to me, when should a TD have a right to do this? ). As for allowing the call to stand this would not be the rules anywhere I have seen, once raise is announced you must raise. I would see sense to giving option to other player for call to stand but I dont think thats really an option as rulings are made now

Agree a set of rules needs to be agreed on and also I think where someone does this repeatedly there needs to be a stiff punishment

aiken2001

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final:

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final : Would it then become standard for all countdowns to end on one rather than on zero?
Posted by J-Hartigan

Touche sir,

It is something that really could do with being published though. I play in a local pub league and regularly go to the regional finals where the TD is a waste of space and his knowledge / interpretation of the rules leaves a lot to be desired.

By the way great to hear your interpretations of the siuation on here where you are obviously less constricted than on the tv.

NoseyBonk

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final:

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final : His rat is soooooooooooooooooo tilting! If I was on a table with him I would stick it where the sun don't shine lol.
Posted by donkeyplop

That rat needs to be killed with fire & death, or worse.

AMYBR

I couldnt have been more disgusted by this AS.

Huge respect for the way it was handled.  Clearly knew what he was doing and cant put across how untoward I thought it was.

If I had been in this pot I doubt I could have conducted myself in such a mild mannered way.  Utterly appalling.

There's things we do, things we dont do.  Its an utter abuse of semantic COC.  Just really really terrible.

DUNONRIVER

In Response to Re: Angleshooting at EPT Grand Final:

I think Eugene was a bit silly to call. Tales of Ivan's angle-shooting have become something of legend on the circuit, since he first pulled off this move at EPT Copenhagen in February. Eugene had actually been warned (by a friend) about this specific player's antics before the tournament even began!
Posted by J-Hartigan

As you say though, if Ivan's tactic is now well known, it's also possible that he may have adapted it , hoping that his opponent is aware that he generally only does it with the nuts, and so folds the better hand.