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AK against 2 shoves, call or fold?

Giant811Giant811
edited August 2011 in The Poker Clinic
Played this hand yester day, no reads:

Hand History #397878889 (21:50 31/07/2011)
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceGiant811Small blind 100.00100.004545.00TAT_ZXRBig blind 200.00300.004337.50 Your hole cardsAK   RogueCellAll-in 3121.253421.250.00Stevie32Fold    salty91Fold    Tommo07All-in 7327.4810748.730.00Giant811Fold    TAT_ZXRFold
Obviously against 2 opponents there is a higher chance of one of them having AA/KK, there is the risk of one of them having 1 or 2 of my outs while the other has a pocket pair, and potentially racing against 2 pocket pairs pairs there is a higher chance of one of them hitting a set/straight/flush. Is the bigger pot worth that risk or is the correct play to fold and wait for a better spot?
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Comments

  • The_Don90The_Don90
    edited August 2011
    whats ur stack.
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  • Giant811Giant811
    edited August 2011
    I need to figure out how to post these hands properly.

    I have about 23 bb.
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  • The_Don90The_Don90
    edited August 2011
    interesting spot tbh.

    Do you have any reads? Expessially on the 3betting player. Also stake and structure of game would help.
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  • Giant811Giant811
    edited August 2011
    No reads I remember, tournament was the mini primo, so pretty slow blinds.
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited August 2011
    I'd call, re-shover could be looking to isolate first shover with say AQ/AJ and worse case he has JJ/QQ your flippin.
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited August 2011
    meh call, put on ypur racing shoes
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  • The_Don90The_Don90
    edited August 2011
    yea in that structure i call. Slower structure i can find a fold.
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  • GlenelgGlenelg
    edited August 2011



    Good fold!  Let em fight it out. Next hand , move on,  nothing to see here.

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  • BigBlusterBigBluster
    edited August 2011
    As anyone who reads these threads will know, I'm not overly keen on getting it in with AK when deep stacked. However, with 23 bigs here I'd shove it in. The re-shove from the big stack is simply to isolate, I wouldn't worry too much about him having the dreaded aces or kings.

    There's a 50% chance of you hitting your A or K, whereby you will {roughly} treble up. These are the kinds of hands you have to win to win tournaments.

    I'd more consider the fold against 1 player than 2, paradoxically.


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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold?:
    As anyone who reads these threads will know, I'm not overly keen on getting it in with AK when deep stacked. However, with 23 bigs here I'd shove it in. The re-shove from the big stack is simply to isolate, I wouldn't worry too much about him having the dreaded aces or kings. There's a 50% chance of you hitting your A or K, whereby you will {roughly} treble up. These are the kinds of hands you have to win to win tournaments. I'd more consider the fold against 1 player than 2, paradoxically.
    Posted by BigBluster
    What range of hands would you give the 2nd shover?

    And even the initial shover?
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  • Giant811Giant811
    edited August 2011
    I figured one of them had A10+ and the other a pocket pair QQ down. Individually I would shove against those hands, but together as one of my outs would be gone I would no longer be flipping against the pair. Might still be worth calling due to the treble-up.
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  • BigBlusterBigBluster
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold?:
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold? : What range of hands would you give the 2nd shover? And even the initial shover?
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    The second shover I'd put on something like AQ/AJ or even KQ, maybe 99. The initial shover, probably a pocket pair, 44+
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited August 2011

    I've played the initial shover alot, and barring anything like tilt, I'd give them a fairly solid/predictable shoving range here....

    15.5 x bb from UTG I'd prob go with 66-JJ, AJ/AQ/AK, KQs, ATs+ ........

    The guys reshoving range is obviously abit stronger....

    99 - AA, AK/AQ AQ/AKs

    ------------------------------------------------


    According to my pokerstove thing, which I'm new-ish to using.....

    That gives you about 32%

    It's 4.5k to win 11kl, so ur just under 3/1....

    I guess that makes it a marginal fold?????

    Which surprises me, as I would snap call it normally, before doing that calculation.

    Can anyone see where I've gone wrong, or is the above a fair enough analysis?


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  • BigBlusterBigBluster
    edited August 2011
    That gives you about 32%

    It's 4.5k to win 11kl, so ur just under 3/1....

    Maths a little out here. 32% means you need 2/1 (you know what I mean). At 4.5K into 11K, mathematically it's a goer.


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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited August 2011
    100/32 = 3 dunnit? am I wrong? lol

    We're only gonna win 1 in three times? :S

    Confuseddddd, I shud stay away from maths.


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  • BigBlusterBigBluster
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold?:
    100/32 = 3 dunnit? am I wrong? lol We're only gonna win 1 in three times? :S Confuseddddd, I shud stay away from maths.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Play the hand 3 times.
    Once you bring home 11K
    Twice you lose 4.5K

    It's why a 20% chance is the same as 4/1 not 5/1.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold?:
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold? : Play the hand 3 times. Once you bring home 11K Twice you lose 4.5K It's why a 20% chance is the same as 4/1 not 5/1.
    Posted by BigBluster
    I love this explanation.

    Soooo much easier to think of it like that.

    So my instincts were right to snap call here, as I have been doing for years. Math really is idiotic ! ;):):):)
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  • Giant811Giant811
    edited August 2011
    To be pedantic, I would only win 8800 (big stack gets some back), which would make it a marginal fold based on the 32%.
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  • rancidrancid
    edited August 2011
    difficult spot - don't mind a fold or a call-
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold?:
    To be pedantic, I would only win 8800 (big stack gets some back), which would make it a marginal fold based on the 32%.
    Posted by Giant811
    Lol!! Another twist.

    ffs I got everything wrong in my calculations.

    So it's now a fold again!!!

    I spose the important bit though is the possible hands I credited both players with.

    Do you agree with those? Or were they too narrow/tight?
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  • Giant811Giant811
    edited August 2011
    I think those ranges are spot on. First guy has 15bb, so too early to open shove with something like 22 or KJ (at least it would be for me), and there would be no reason to shove AA/KK/QQ, and second guy surely must have a strong hand, as even if he isolates he risks half his stack.
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold?:
    I think those ranges are spot on. First guy has 15bb, so too early to open shove with something like 22 or KJ (at least it would be for me), and there would be no reason to shove AA/KK/QQ, and second guy surely must have a strong hand, as even if he isolates he risks half his stack.
    Posted by Giant811
    Would the difference between shoving 22 or 66 not be pretty marginal here? I have no idea of his range, maybe thats what he does , but they are going to play similarly against calling ranges. Also generally if I had been openshoving with around this stack depth I would do it with AA also 
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited August 2011
    ^^^^

    I think against alot of players or prob more importantly on alot of tables on sky you can mix it up and play differently according to the strength of your hand, and get away with it....

    especially if you haven't been shoving alot, and also, when you're 14+xbb deep rather than around 10xbb...

    If you have AA utg w/15xbb, and one of the 5 players behind you has AJ+, TJs+ or any pair, they WILL call to see a flop.

    They will also fold most of that range to a shove....

    They won't realise that you've open shoved 4 times in the last 15 hands, and now you're min raising....

    And if they do, they will struggle to interpret it.

    Also if they make top pair or a draw, they aren't folding, if they call pre with 99, and the flop is low, they aren't folding....We double up....

    So I think you can min raise, or 2.5x for value and still shove as a steal (altho I wudnt be doing this v light UTG w/15xbb)

    I suppose you get some tables on sky with good players, who you wont be able to do that against, but then you just adapt, maybe mix it up, or just play totally differently.

    I think the initial raiser has enough experience on the site to recognise that open shoving utg with AA and 15xbb is prob not the best way to play it.
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  • YOUNG_GUNYOUNG_GUN
    edited August 2011
    Tricky spot indeed i probably call, but not snap can easily fold here vs solid villain(s)
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  • debdobs_67debdobs_67
    edited August 2011
    I am now totally confused with all the maths lolz but im inclined to call here as gettin a decent stack at this stage in a tourny is vital , if it was A Q i can find a fold no probs but A K i gotta play it yeah???
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold?:
    ^^^^ I think against alot of players or prob more importantly on alot of tables on sky you can mix it up and play differently according to the strength of your hand, and get away with it.... especially if you haven't been shoving alot, and also, when you're 14+xbb deep rather than around 10xbb... If you have AA utg w/15xbb, and one of the 5 players behind you has AJ+, TJs+ or any pair, they WILL call to see a flop. They will also fold most of that range to a shove.... They won't realise that you've open shoved 4 times in the last 15 hands, and now you're min raising.... And if they do, they will struggle to interpret it. Also if they make top pair or a draw, they aren't folding, if they call pre with 99, and the flop is low, they aren't folding....We double up.... So I think you can min raise, or 2.5x for value and still shove as a steal (altho I wudnt be doing this v light UTG w/15xbb) I suppose you get some tables on sky with good players, who you wont be able to do that against, but then you just adapt, maybe mix it up, or just play totally differently. I think the initial raiser has enough experience on the site to recognise that open shoving utg with AA and 15xbb is prob not the best way to play it.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    I get what you are saying, and certainly if I hadnt been openshoving (I wouldnt always be shove or fold with 15BB)much I just open small here with monsters. If I have been shoving a lot though, I will still get called by stuff like AJ and 99 and worse tbh. The opposite also applies they sometimes flat 99 and high flop comes etc and I miss a lot of value. You are prob right though.

    Just curious to the range you gave, I see very little reason why he shoves 66 and not 22 esp if he wont get called by Arag, it may be what he does though obv
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  • ybyb
    edited August 2011
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold?:
    In Response to Re: AK against 2 shoves, call or fold? : I love this explanation. Soooo much easier to think of it like that. So my instincts were right to snap call here, as I have been doing for years. Math really is idiotic ! ;):):):)
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    lol its idiotic if you can't do it right

    as for the hand i'm not folding
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  • mahonedogmahonedog
    edited August 2011
    push it all  in thats how u make da big bucks lol
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