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Bounty Hunter why i called with 8 9 suited on final table
Hi all this is my first post just thought i would clear up this as it really seamed to upset ed and myself by his comments on last nights show,
In the past month i have made the final table twice in the Thursday night BH. Now considering that i own and operate a pub and work Thursday nights i do not think that this is a bad achievement i had played fairly well up to that point (couldn't have been that bad i was on final table) with the usual bit of luck that is needed and because i am not concentrating fully on the game i made what he considered to be a bad call. Be in my shoes made final table now 3 handed gooner seems quite aggesrsive and bazbaz is been egged on by by ed. in hind sight goon has raised all in with j 6 bad move but nothing said i know his raising range is wide and to be honest didn't think he had much and i was right so i called with a legitimate hand 8 9 diamonds. now to be quite honest i have been called with worse against my Js, Qs, Ks or bullets and been beaten in 2 or 3 times tonight in this tourney. Gooners j high holds up. and i am personally slated by ed The next hand gooner pre flop raises again this time with K 6 diamonds i auto call with A K and get beat by a paired six
I think that both these calls were good but got beat, but surely that's POKER or was ed having a go by describing the call as the worst he has ever seen on sky poker ( hasn't been watching the same programme as me then obviously) and definately has not seen some of the atrocious hands we have all seen on this site. perhaps he would like to e.mail me with his reasons to why he slated me so much.
If presenters are going to have that sort of attitude perhaps it is time to move away from sky
In the past month i have made the final table twice in the Thursday night BH. Now considering that i own and operate a pub and work Thursday nights i do not think that this is a bad achievement i had played fairly well up to that point (couldn't have been that bad i was on final table) with the usual bit of luck that is needed and because i am not concentrating fully on the game i made what he considered to be a bad call. Be in my shoes made final table now 3 handed gooner seems quite aggesrsive and bazbaz is been egged on by by ed. in hind sight goon has raised all in with j 6 bad move but nothing said i know his raising range is wide and to be honest didn't think he had much and i was right so i called with a legitimate hand 8 9 diamonds. now to be quite honest i have been called with worse against my Js, Qs, Ks or bullets and been beaten in 2 or 3 times tonight in this tourney. Gooners j high holds up. and i am personally slated by ed The next hand gooner pre flop raises again this time with K 6 diamonds i auto call with A K and get beat by a paired six
I think that both these calls were good but got beat, but surely that's POKER or was ed having a go by describing the call as the worst he has ever seen on sky poker ( hasn't been watching the same programme as me then obviously) and definately has not seen some of the atrocious hands we have all seen on this site. perhaps he would like to e.mail me with his reasons to why he slated me so much.
If presenters are going to have that sort of attitude perhaps it is time to move away from sky
Comments
Thought as I was sitting opposite you when you made this call, I'd give you my take on it...
In all honesty, when the call was made I was sitting on the sofa playing on my laptop with my wife watching over my shoulder. (background here... She's not really a clue about poker however she is a nosey cow and always wants to know the in's and outs of a ducks XXXX!!!)
When Gooner shoves, her comment is "does that mean he has a really good hand". I explained that it probably wasn't the case and if I were sitting where Bullabbo was and I had any ace or pair, because of Gooner's range I'd probably make the call. Then you did make the call and turned over the 89 suited. My initial reaction was actually identical to Ed's (and probably 95% of people watching) - WTF?
I guess that at least 95/100 people fold there. Your choice to make the call was obviously yours and to make it to FT in this says that your game must be fairly good. I think Ed's amazement was valid. In my opinion there are times when I would certainly make a call like that however 3 handed on FT of a £12k tournament when I'm up against a similar chip stack isn't one of them.
When you play on skypoker in one of the games that has the potential to be featured and analysed on TV, I think you have to go into it knowing that if you make a questionable play, there is a good chance it will be picked up on. 3 handed on FT, a hero call like the one that you made is always going to be analysed.
If you remember, about 10 hands before when we were 4 handed, I made what may be considered a dodgy move when I had pocket 2's and then reinforced the 'dodgyness' of the move by calling an all in. Ed criticised this (rightly so) however there was a theory to what I was doing and luckily for me it held up. I guess the big difference between the two moves (and why yours was questioned more) is that I got lucky and mine held up and yours didn't.
On another note, although Ed is friend I have only met him through skypoker and rated his analysis very highly before meeting him. I think that his analysis is normally spot on and whilst viewers may have subtle variations or interpretations on why somebody makes a play, for the vast majority of times he is accurate.
One of the reasons I won the BH last night was because over the last couple of years, I've listened to what analysts say about hands and learned from them. If I make a play and it is criticised, I take on what is said and then consider that when in a similar situation again. Ironically, the reason I made the call with the 22 was because of something that Ed had said earlier on in the show.
Anyway, as I said, just thought I'd give my take on it.
Great game last night and well played.
Darren
As for your AK hand, you where unlucky. If the commentary bothered you perhaps the best option was to switch off the tv and watch a rerun. I know I would want no distractions if I made the final table.
Its hard work final tabling on the BH starting chips are 2000 which doesnt allow a lot of play, and you defo need to double up early doors to stand a good chance of going deep.
Just look at your sky account this morning and im sure the comments will rub off!
but hey you paid your money to enter the tournie you can play how you like. nice cash btw
here is why it is a terrible call. you had 22bb when 3 handed at a FT with a large amount of money the difference between first and third. 22bb is massive at this stage.
89dd is NOT a legitimate hand to be calling 17bb shoves with. even if the man is shoving with 67 you aren't that far ahead and there are so many hands that he can have that are dominating you with. if he had 6bb or so then fair enough as you aren't essentially risking your whole tournie but to play all night and then get them in with 89dd is ridic.
and SHOVING with K6 and hitting a 6 is far different from CALLING with 89. in MTTs it is good to be raising with ATC. calling with 9 high for 17bb is NEVER EVER GOOD POKER.
if i can add my observations....
it was an awful decision to call
eds comments are about the play and not the player, separate the two
lager and poker is no good as i found out at the cardiff spt (opening with 7-3s)
congratulations on getting to the final three, absolutely brilliant
finally, congratulations bullabbo and well done.
firstly congrats on last nights cash and also the previous few cashes in the bh, as you say you must be doing something right.
Please dont think any comment I make is a personal attack, my style of analysis
is geared towards being honest,sometimes brutally.
Different styles of play suit many differnt players, when I am analysing on Skypoker Id hope that during the course of a 4 hour show viewers would hear from me some reasons why players could have made a particular move, if the viewer likes what he hears he may try to incorporate that move into his/her game, it may work it may not, all Id hopo is that the viewer is trying to further his/her game.
When Gooner moved allin with j6 I was in the middle of questioning whether this move was correct bearing in mind there was 15000 in the middle and both you and him had over 200k, then you called with 9 high, I was truly amazed.
In your post above you state the following
"now to be quite honest i have been called with worse against my Js, Qs, Ks or bullets and been beaten in 2 or 3 times tonight in this tourney".
Poker is all about making the correct calls and getting your money in as a favourite as much as possible, just because players have made poor calls against you and got lucky to beat your jj qq kk aa during the previous 3 hours doesnt mean you should then make a poor call and try and get lucky.
Please continue to play your own game, just tweek it slightly, when you are next on a ft 3 handed with over 20 big blinds please laydown 9 high, I promise you that even against the loosest of players laying down 9high even if the 9 has a pretty looking 8 and they are both diamonds to go with it is correct 100% of the time !.
The post youve made has a chance of creating some discussion,like my style of analysing I hope the discussion is geared towards learning and improving our poker and not taken too personally.
Cheers Bullalbbo and please do feel able to either pm me or discuss on here some more, am out allday today untill 9 ish though if I havent replied,if anyone is in the chessington area and like cricket come along and watch some great names of the past play including Phillip Defreitas, , James Marshall, John Emburey, Henry Olonga, Wasim Jaffer, Ian Butler, Chris Harris, Mohammad Akram, Devon Malcolm, Saqlain Mushtaq.
WP on the cash though
Firstly, congratulations on the third place last night and your recent success, very well done.
In response to the points I have put in bold above in order:
Yes Gooner was being very aggressive, IMO somewhat over aggressive. This is great for you in your seat as you can pick your spot to get in a likely very good situation against him. Ed made it clear he was a friend of BazBazBaz but was being even handed with all of the analysis.
Ed was in the middle of explaining the mathematical issue of the overbet shove with J6 from Gooner when you called. It did not 'say nothing,' he was in the middle of breaking it down as an -ev play when you called which frankly shocked him, and therefore he ceased on that comment.
Cards have no memory. Just because other people have called wide and got lucky against your big hands has no relation to this hand.
There was absolutely no personal comments made by Ed. The great thing about Ed's analysis is he is brutally honest about the individual plays and about the style of play of the person if he sees several hands from them over the course of one show. He'll call something a leak, he'll call something a losing play but he'll never say anything personal against the person (i.e. Player X is rubbish etc).
He never said 'it was the worst call he saw on SkyPoker' IIRC. He said 'It was the most extraordinary hand he has seen on a SkyPoker Final Table' which was referring to both you and Gonner's play.
Ok, about the call. Gooner is overbet shoving pretty much ATC. You are deep enough to find a much better spot to snap him off with. Now while 98s plays comparatively well against Gooner's range, it is very rarely a favourite (you're a marginal favourite v 33 no diamonds etc) and never crushing Gooner. When you are still deep enough you can look for much better spots. Gooner's chips were always on offer three handed and IMO you could have found a better position to play that big pot. You may have still got unlucky (the AK v K6 etc) but you would have given yourself a much better chance to win his bounty and go into HU with a nice chip lead.
Congrats again and I wish you continued success at the tables.
not just a call to a 17bb open jam lol
Cheers Danny
However I agree with you on the J6
Congrats on the cash last night and your recent success, best of luck.
If you are going to take offence when someone points out a mistake in honest terms, don't watch 865 when you final table.
Im certain every player at some point make mistakes and will do so again in future, the only diference with yours was it was televised
WD on your cash though and just take the comments on board while not letting them haunt you.
but yeah really even if you know Gooners shoving range is going to be wider then most BvB that still does not justify you calling with 89 im guessing the 'sooooted' factor had some part in you making the call, even though e had literally nothing J6o that still is ahead of your 9 high, theres also a chance that you are completely dominated and do not have 2 live cards example gooner can easily do the same thing there with 99,88 then you are hoping to hit your diamond flush a straight etc, you make the fold you are still in a good spot to win the tournament
on that note WD on the 3rd place but always remember FOLD 9 HIGH
If your 8 9 suited had paid dividends we'd be calling your decision inspired!
You did brilliant! you cashed in third and your actions yesterday will probably make you a much better player in the future!
But I can't help thinking you're missing out on an opportunity!!
You run a pub!! why not invite Sky to use your gaff for a bespoke tournament. I'm sure they'd welcome any chance to get out of the studio!
learn the difference between winning a hand and playing it well
the shove is bad, the call is bad
however, the shove is not nearly as bad as the call and this is really the point bullabo - when you put your chips in first, there is a chance everyone folds and you take the blinds - when you call, you lose that equity
first time i've seen Ed last night and i thought his analysis was very good
didn't see these comments as was off tilting for calling joes raise pre-flop in the roller
prob around 40% equity + (I assume) big bounty to win + doesnt appear to think he has advantage over other players
=
not quite as bad as everyone says?
I have shared a table with you in the past and you, to put it frankly need to work on your game. I've often see you call with poor holdings like that hand like night and it really didn't suprise me to see you call there. You say you must be a good player but a look at your sharkscope graph indicates differently to me. I mean that away the 2 really big tournament finishes and it would be seriously low.