Advice on my betting pattern

parkie32

GMW	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£3.54
MagicMerse	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£2.31
	Your hole cards	J Q
parkie32	Raise		£0.08	£0.14	£3.16
MarianT	Fold
tomhass	Call		£0.08	£0.22	£4.12
gusndonz	Fold
GMW	Raise		£0.22	£0.44	£3.32
MagicMerse	Fold
parkie32	Call		£0.16	£0.60	£3.00
tomhass	Fold
Flop
		J 5 5
GMW	Check
parkie32	Bet		£0.20	£0.80	£2.80
GMW	Call		£0.20	£1.00	£3.12
Turn
		2
GMW	Check
parkie32	Check
River
		8
GMW	Bet		£1.00	£2.00	£2.12
parkie32	Call		£1.00	£3.00	£1.80
GMW	Show	K K
parkie32	Muck	J Q
GMW	Win	Two Pairs, Kings and 5s	£2.77		£4

parkie32

Should i have seen this coming, or did i do nothing wrong after the turn i kinda knew i was losing. Any advice would be greatful.

percival09

welcome to the forums ..........

i'd raise bigger pre, especially at 4NL, players at this level love to call so you need to make the price more expensive pre flop, i'm no expert but i know some players who make it 4 or 5X, so 16 or 20p! 

i'd also fold to villains 3bet readless, you're never really gonna be in good shape, especially considering most players at this level will only 3bet with v.v.v.strong hands ... so i'd fold there

as played, bet bigger on the flop ... anything around 1/2 pot is ok, villains check is quite deceiving but i think a 

40p bet for value is def ok

tbh i'd probz bet the turn for value/protection aswell, around 60p is fine, by checking you're usually missing out on value from hands like pocket 10's or 9's which look most likely atm

villains river bet is quite weird, been v.passive the whole way through the hand and then bets pot, tbh it probably is a fold, but i don't mind the call too much, i guess, as villain has played the hand extremely awkwardly, infact the more i look the more it looks like some strange attempt of a bluff from villain, so i think it's fine .. hope this helps

jenny_IYY

Dont like the min raise pre and dont like playing qj os in early pos anyways, min raises in general get called off almost anything and unless you flop a monster you never know where you are. I would advise to make it 3x bb from now on.

When you get the reraise off him because you never raised properly in the first place he could be doing it with a lesser hand than what he has thinking that he is not letting you into the pot for cheap with any old carp etc.

If you raised properly in the first place you can then give his reraise a bit more respect but as it is you havnt got any answers yet.

Once the flop comes down and he checks you should be pot betting it in order to get a answer but your bet size would allow anyone with almost any holdings to come along for the ride.

When the 2 comes on the turn and he checks again you have now put yourself in a position where you dont know where you are in the hand because as of yet you still havnt got any answers and at this point your starting to play a guessing game as to what he has instead of being confident if you had played earlier streets better and your check on the turn to a very safe card shows that.

Once the river comes down because you dont know where you are in the hand and have shown weakness he could be betting with anything so your call on river isnt too bad but you said yourself that you were starting to think you were beat so a fold wouldnt have been too bad either.

In a nutshell if you had bet earlier streets stronger you would have known you were behind but you would have lost only a small amount less than you did but this becomes more important as you move up through the levels and aslong as you play the game right and ask questions with your bets you will get the answers you need instead of second guessing you opponants all the time.

When you play poker nobody is going to tell you what they have so the only way to find out is by betting and asking questions that way and you have to make the bets strong enough so you know when they call or raise you that you have got a real answer back.

Best of luck. Jenny.

The_Don90

pre flop raise 16p min please. That way its easier to fold to the 3bet as suddenly it becomes 44-64p instead of 24p and therefore u think hmmm abit much. Other advice is QJo is a pretty marginal starting hand so play with caution. Fold to the 3-bet as played.

On the flop you've set yourself to go broke. His check call is kind of weird, however your bet sizing here is all wrong betting 20p into this pot achieves nothing at all. Bet ALOT closer to the pot.

The turn again i would bet, i agree that this seems odd but AK/AQ will happily be calling you down on this board so go for Max Value.

River get it in.

id say theres alot to be taken from this hand in honesty. Alot of improvements can be made from both yourself and you opponent in the hand. Although thats why we're at this level most of the time is to learn without creating a huge dept.

My best peice of advice is something i was told. Bet Bigger with good hand = MORE MONEYS. Your asking a good question to start off with so keep at it. It will come.

Dudeskin8

Open fold under the gun with QJo for me, in cut off/button might raise but not first to act. If I would it would be at least 20p.

After being reraised pre just fold as even if you hit top pair like here you can be behind a lot to over pairs AJ/KJ and can be just bleeding money through the hand.

Luckily for you opponant was very bad and played his hand slower than a snail but made sure he pot bet river lol.

Main advice for NL4 that will help you liturally PRINT MONEY against the right players is - raise BIG pre with BIG hands, bet BIG with BIG hands on flop, then win BIG moniez.

grantorino

openfold pre, if you do raise make it at least 12p, prob more. When you are 3bet snapfold, QJ plays very badly against an unknown 4NL players 3betting range

Flop if I bet I make it 40p I sometimes check back though

Turn check fine imo

River is classic fish line with nuts but your hand is hugely underrepped, meh prob call but I dont hate folding

Also, have a plan at every stage of hand. Why are you raising? Why are you calling? What am I going to do if villain raises? What am I going to do on next street?

grantorino

In Response to Re: Advice on my betting pattern:

pre flop raise 16p min please. That way its easier to fold to the 3bet as suddenly it becomes 44-64p instead of 24p and therefore u think hmmm abit much. Other advice is QJo is a pretty marginal starting hand so play with caution. Fold to the 3-bet as played. On the flop you've set yourself to go broke. His check call is kind of weird, however your bet sizing here is all wrong betting 20p into this pot achieves nothing at all. Bet ALOT closer to the pot. The turn again i would bet, i agree that this seems odd but AK/AQ will happily be calling you down on this board so go for Max Value. River get it in. id say theres alot to be taken from this hand in honesty. Alot of improvements can be made from both yourself and you opponent in the hand. Although thats why we're at this level most of the time is to learn without creating a huge dept. My best peice of advice is something i was told. Bet Bigger with good hand = MORE MONEYS. Your asking a good question to start off with so keep at it. It will come.
Posted by The_Don90

Making it easier to fold to 3bets is not a reason to raise bigger, its a reason to raise smaller if anything

I would be shocked if shoving the river is not valuetowning yourself here, even at 4NL

grantorino

In Response to Re: Advice on my betting pattern:

Dont like the min raise pre and dont like playing qj os in early pos anyways, min raises in general get called off almost anything and unless you flop a monster you never know where you are. I would advise to make it 3x bb from now on. When you get the reraise off him because you never raised properly in the first place he could be doing it with a lesser hand than what he has thinking that he is not letting you into the pot for cheap with any old carp etc. If you raised properly in the first place you can then give his reraise a bit more respect but as it is you havnt got any answers yet. Once the flop comes down and he checks you should be pot betting it in order to get a answer but your bet size would allow anyone with almost any holdings to come along for the ride. When the 2 comes on the turn and he checks again you have now put yourself in a position where you dont know where you are in the hand because as of yet you still havnt got any answers and at this point your starting to play a guessing game as to what he has instead of being confident if you had played earlier streets better and your check on the turn to a very safe card shows that. Once the river comes down because you dont know where you are in the hand and have shown weakness he could be betting with anything so your call on river isnt too bad but you said yourself that you were starting to think you were beat so a fold wouldnt have been too bad either. In a nutshell if you had bet earlier streets stronger you would have known you were behind but you would have lost only a small amount less than you did but this becomes more important as you move up through the levels and aslong as you play the game right and ask questions with your bets you will get the answers you need instead of second guessing you opponants all the time. When you play poker nobody is going to tell you what they have so the only way to find out is by betting and asking questions that way and you have to make the bets strong enough so you know when they call or raise you that you have got a real answer back. Best of luck. Jenny.
Posted by jenny_IYY

Jenny, I'm sure you are a good enough player to know why we should bet, but this makes it sound to the op like we should be betting for information. I get waht you are saying that we dont have a good idea of villains holding because of the way hero as played hand, but that doesnt mean he should have bet other streets  (he possibly should, but not for that reason)

 We should bet for value to get called by worse or as a bluff to make better fold. Sure when we bet it usually allows us to narrow opponents range if he calls or raises, but information is a byproduct of a bet not the reason that we bet. If a bet being called means we know we are behind then we shouldnt have been betting for value

jenny_IYY

In Response to Re: Advice on my betting pattern:

In Response to Re: Advice on my betting pattern : Jenny, I'm sure you are a good enough player to know why we should bet, but this makes it sound to the op like we should be betting for information. I get waht you are saying that we dont have a good idea of villains holding because of the way hero as played hand, but that doesnt mean he should have bet other streets  (he possibly should, but not for that reason)  We should bet for value to get called by worse or as a bluff to make better fold. Sure when we bet it usually allows us to narrow opponents range if he calls or raises, but information is a byproduct of a bet not the reason that we bet. If a bet being called means we know we are behind then we shouldnt have been betting for value
Posted by grantorino

Hi Grantorino.

Like i have said in the past we all play the game in different ways and unless im in a hand where i flop a monster or i am holding aces, kings etc i will almost always be betting for information until the point i know that i am now betting for value. Prob just the big nit in me but it has worked for me over the years In the end the 2 go hand in hand most of the time because your building pots and taking pots down while doing it although i wouldnt be doing it 100% of the time depending on the board, opo etc.

In the hand above because the op has entered a reraised pot with qj os in the first place and hit a j high checked flop he should def be betting pot for info and value then when he gets called or raised he has a better idea of where he is in the hand instead of just closing eyes and making crying calls at the river when thinking he is beat.

In all honesty i am prob not the best at getting my point across and alot of what you said i also believe but when im trying to help someone playing so low i feel that if he was to add things like 3 or 4 bb raises pre to his game instead of min raising and asking questions instead of just calling etc then in the long term that can only help him.

Im not trying to say im the greatest player in the world or that i play every hand perfectly and no doubt i miss bets or lose hands i should be winning at times but i know that i am a big winning player over the years and when i reply to these posts i am just trying to give people a little help as best as i can get my point across ( although not always correctly   )

Best of luck. Jenny.x.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Advice on my betting pattern:

In Response to Re: Advice on my betting pattern : Hi Grantorino. Like i have said in the past we all play the game in different ways and unless im in a hand where i flop a monster or i am holding aces, kings etc i will almost always be betting for information until the point i know that i am now betting for value. Prob just the big nit in me but it has worked for me over the years In the end the 2 go hand in hand most of the time because your building pots and taking pots down while doing it although i wouldnt be doing it 100% of the time depending on the board, opo etc. In the hand above because the op has entered a reraised pot with qj os in the first place and hit a j high checked flop he should def be betting pot for info and value then when he gets called or raised he has a better idea of where he is in the hand instead of just closing eyes and making crying calls at the river when thinking he is beat. In all honesty i am prob not the best at getting my point across and alot of what you said i also believe but when im trying to help someone playing so low i feel that if he was to add things like 3 or 4 bb raises pre to his game instead of min raising and asking questions instead of just calling etc then in the long term that can only help him. Im not trying to say im the greatest player in the world or that i play every hand perfectly and no doubt i miss bets or lose hands i should be winning at times but i know that i am a big winning player over the years and when i reply to these posts i am just trying to give people a little help as best as i can get my point across ( although not always correctly   ) Best of luck. Jenny.x.
Posted by jenny_IYY

First of all, when I disagree with you in a thread Im not personally attacking you (if it seemed that way I apologise) and certainly not doubting your ability as a poker player. Everyone is here to learn, share ideas etc. If you disagree with me argue your point, sometimes you'll bring me around to your way of thimking, sometimes maybe vice versa, sometimes we'll just disagree, but thats all cool debating helps me learn.

Im pretty sure you are a good player from your posts here, but betting for information is bad in the vast majority of situations. Now you are a winning player so I would think if you are betting for info and its working for you its because your bets have a value aspect or a bluff aspect to them, whichever is appropriate

I agree on your points about his betsizing. Explain what you mean by "asking questions", maybe its not what I think. The problem with betting for info is you get the wrong info usually ie you get a fold when you have the best hand (you want a call) and you get a call/raised when you have the worst hand ( you want a fold). 

bolly580

dont have a faggy min raise pre, if you raise it up to 16.
Then the villian will re raise you to 32-50 and then you can just fold because you know the strength of there hand has got you crushed.

parkie32

Thank you all for your time in replying to me and i've going to take all what you have said onboard. Do you think villian played the hand worse than me, cause ui think he did specially with the turn check??