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We dont want more than 1-2 callers with AA,KK
I see the above posted in loads of threads, and its always stated like its an established fact. To me its far from obvious that this is true. Can anyone explain to me why its true if indeed it is true. Lets assume cash game 100bb deep.
Comments
I'd imagine that in the long term it doesnt make much difference. There's a table in a poker book I read recently and it gives the odds of winning with KK (against a random hand) if everyone plays to the end with different numbers of opponents.
1 opponents = 85%
2 = 72%
3 = 63%
6 = 39%
9 = 30%
I guess it's whether you feel like gambling or not. Obviously you will win more in a family pot but you will win them much less often so I'm not sure. I prefer to play a bit safer and be pretty sure I'm going to with a small/medium pot, than possibly lose or possibly win a big one.
Perhaps this is the wrong way to play though. I'm BR'd enough to handle being outdrawn so maybe I should lose the little ones to win the big one... i dunno.
Those percentages look very high to me, but I wouldnt worry to much about them anyway, people dont get to see all 5 cards generally and also they usually dont play completely random hands. Like you say less opponents will reduce variance, I'm just not sure it increases profit
obviously your raising for value right - but also your raising to isolate a hand that you beat and with the raising action your atempting to get the money in ahead pre v a hand you beat - so your raising to determine how big the other hand is so you can also play the streets to get monies in
By simply going multi way it just reduces your percentage so why would you do that if you like a bet
Also going multi way then you have no idea what these 3/4 players have, giving yourself a very bad spot to try and determine if you are ahead
going multi way makes poker difficult and why would you want to do that ?
The only time it is good is when you flop massive, which is a very low percentage of the time - like i say bingo poker )
Tbh, I am more comfortable playing AA hu than multiway, but thats because as loads of you have pointed out its easier but imo not neccesarily because its more profitable. There may well be an ideal number of callers, but its not clear to me what number that would be
Jakally makes some points about easier to stack off the less iplayersn the pot, which is true, but we often dont get to stack off (and we are not always good when we do). He also says it will be more profitable beacause we make less mistakes. While this may be true and is probably a valid point, I always hate going down that line of thought, because if we start playing hands in order to avoid making mistakes we are often not going to be taking the most +EV line (The example with wanting everyone to fold with AA is a rather oversimplified example of that).
I'm really not sure how many callers we want, getting it hu may well be best but I'm just interested in where the idea came from and if its true.
I honestly don't think that playing AA/KK multi way is profitable long term. I have no stats it's just something I feel. In the short term and under the right circumstances it can be highly worthwhile. But I think your playing higher risk going multi way with AA/KK by lowering your percentage chance of wining. If I am short stacked in a MTT and need a double up I don't mind going 2-3 way into a flop. If I am on a tight cash table pre but happy to stack light on flop then I don't mind going multi.
On the occasions I have limped along with AA/KK and/or totaly underepped my hand, you do get paid off by TPGK so in the short term it's very profitable.
If I would have raised pre then maybe they would not even see the flop to catch top pr.
But it also works the other way and a raggy ace gets there v your KK, or some 108o hits str or two pr.
Dabble with it I guess and see how it goes
I don't think there's an absolute 100% way to play AA/KK but in the majority of situations I am raising for value
If I am giving advice to a new player then ABC poker would be 100% raise AA/KK
I think this is why you here this a lot, as I am sure thats why a lot of people have said this
To be fair though, it does really depend on the format and level. I'm playing 4NL at the moment, til I get my BR up a bit more and in there when you get AA you raise massive pre because the number of times you get a call (even to a 10X raise) with Q10 is ludicrous so you're just trying to get the chips in asap because I think the odds against random hands does apply more at this level.
On a table the other day with AA (2p/4p) someone raised 16p, I made it 42p, they went all in for like £1.08 and they had K4 off lol
Problems being that it is never as easy as that, as you bet throught he streets, you have more decisions to make, the more decisions you make, the more chance of mistakes you make, and the more chances of opposition hands improving.
Sorry if thats a bit hazy, my head is today!
I don't mind playing multi way 3-4 but only in posistion and your hand is very disguised so i can see why you would want to do this. I have a ruling with these hands if i play passive pre with AA KK or AK unless i hit massive i will play passive post aswell and fold kings to ACE high boards and and AK if i miss. I think that works better in tournaments but seems to work!
Ideally you want to play a big pot HU with someone who also has a good hand, say a top 5% or better hand ideally. How you play the hand HU depends on the opponent, your position, your image and the flop texture etc.
That said, circumstances vary wildly, and in SOME situations, it is +EV to play AA or KK multi-way. For example, you are at a table where most people limp or min raise preflop, 2 x BB sometimes and only ever 3xBB with big hands. You had QQ earlier and raised 3BB UTG and everyone folded having classified you as TAG with a tight opening range so 3BB UTG meant a big hand.
A few hands later you have J 10o in the CO. There was was a 2BB bet before you, you flat call, SB and BB call too, 4 way pot. Flop comes 2 7 8 rainbow. It gets checked to you and you shove. Everyone folds and you show you shoved with J10o and only a gut shot straight draw. People remember this.
Sometime later you pick up the bullets and make a 2BB raise and get 3 callers. Flop comes K J 6. It gets raised before you with a call and a fold. You shove. The initial raiser has KQ and assumes his top pair Q kicker is good and that you are shoving a draw again so he calls, the other player folds, Aces hold up and you win.
Obv that version of the story didn't include the turn A and river 10 or similar suckouts, but, the moral of the story is every hand is played situationally, based on image, position, opponents etc and if it screams to you that you can outplay the other players post flop and it's better to go to flop with a few people so be it.
i personally prefer to play a 2-3 way pot as people are more inclined to stack off with hands like TPGK, in a 4+ way pot you will rarely see players getting in 100BB's with 1 pair.
If i ever find myself in a multiway pot with an overpair i always seem to end up pot controling because i dont want to be getting check raised by a turned/rivered 2pair, but often pot controlling = missed value.
Aces and kings will be highly profitable over time, when playing them i think the main concern is to try and
Induce bluffs whilst not giving away bet sizing tells Vs your other PFR/c-betting range.
When I started this thread I wasnt really looking for advice on how to play big pairs, or advocating limping or a particular raise size. I was just interested in whether a line I often heard actually had some solid theory behind it. I cant really control number of players in the pot anyway.
Certainly it will be tough multiway against good players ( although getting them to stack off with worse hu in single raised pots can often be difficult). Against fish that play obviously and will overplay top pair hands and play draws straight forward I'm not sure going multiway is so bad, I think it may well bemore profitable
I like the thread , if your a good player post flop then you can play 2-4 handedm, making smaller controlled bets to induce action because you can read the board, oppo etc and therefore fold when necessary if not so good post flop then avoid if poss.
But your very unlikely going to stack an oppo in a four way that is an underdog to aa, who is going to stack-off in a multi way pot with top pair for eg. poss if the board comes k28 rainbow? and oppo has kq, maybe?
You cant allwys control how many callers you get to the flop so you have to deal with it, in an ideal world though we all should want to get it all-in pre.
while this is fine against 1 opponent, in say a 4 way pot, one pair is a lot less likely to be the best hand by the river
very often you dont get 4 all ins, what you get is 3 callers then one hand hits and plays against you while the other 2 fold
if 4 people are all in pre, of course, you call and be overjoyed about it, but there are a lot of boards that you would need to improve to a full house on to be confident of having best hand and 4 handed, its far more likely someone connected