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Cash game on Channel 5
Anyone else see this ?
The amateur player limps in with KK, and inevitably gets 3 callers including Phil Hellmuth with A9. Flop comes 10 9 9, and the chips go in, putting the amateur out of the game if Phils trips hold up.
Phil then offers to run it 4 times, which the other guy agrees.
Obviously he was not doing it to be nice by letting his opponent have a chance of saving a few chips, but to protect himself against an outrageous outdraw,as it was a huge pot.
First run the 9s held up, second go the king comes, third he loses to a runner runner flush, and in the last one the case king appears ! Phil went quiet for a bit but Negreanu and Tony G loved it.
Is this common in cash games, and was Phil right to do it ? And how big were the odds ?
The amateur player limps in with KK, and inevitably gets 3 callers including Phil Hellmuth with A9. Flop comes 10 9 9, and the chips go in, putting the amateur out of the game if Phils trips hold up.
Phil then offers to run it 4 times, which the other guy agrees.
Obviously he was not doing it to be nice by letting his opponent have a chance of saving a few chips, but to protect himself against an outrageous outdraw,as it was a huge pot.
First run the 9s held up, second go the king comes, third he loses to a runner runner flush, and in the last one the case king appears ! Phil went quiet for a bit but Negreanu and Tony G loved it.
Is this common in cash games, and was Phil right to do it ? And how big were the odds ?
Comments
the look on phils face!! negrano having kittens. karma!!
Someone started a thread a while ago asking why people hate Phil Hellmuth so much.
I though Laak, Negranue and Tony G were hugely out of order on this particular show, down to a perceived slowroll by hellmuth. Yes Hellmuth did take slightly too long to 3bet allin on flop, the hollywood wasnt entirely neccessary but he wanted to ensure he got the last of the guys money. Then every time the guy hits his super thin outs they jump up and down and celebrate, high fiving and and all the rest. Super bad form. To his credit Hellmuth doesnt say a word, shaking the amateurs hand on the 3rd run. Despite all the needling he only gets close to a melt down once with G's runner runner boat (45), likely only then down to the constant abuse.
If the boot was on the other foot here ther'd be uproar. Negranue has run ridiculously bad in HSP series in the past. If Hellmuth had been running around high 5ing the super lucky opponent I'm pretty darn sure Negranue and co. would have taken huge offense. You only had to look at Doyle to see hw they should have acted, stoic and impartial.
Only time I can remember being severley annoyed by negranue and Laak.
Thought it was really really bad form.
Lacks main critism (sp) was the call pre flop by hellmuth. TonyG was just out to get under the brats skin all through the game and Negranu was just needling bit and cheering the dog.
They're just trying to wind him up.
It was interesting to see his little piece to camera though. Explaining how he's trying to change with a mind coach as he knows he's not playing optimally when he's upset.
That would explain why he acted so differently at the WSOP.
Incidently (I think someone asked), I think they said the odds of him winning 3 out of the 4 runs was 0.14 of a percent.
I also thought he was kind of peer pressured into offering to run it 4 times because they were making him feeling bad for 'slowrolling it'. To be honest, I know he was trying to be nice and give him a chance but I'm not a fan of running hands multiple times. I only see it being in anyway beneficial if it's a flip and even then, I'd rather take my chances, if I didn't want to take that chance I wouldn't have put my chips in in the first place.
I've watched a couple of episodes of this show and to be honest I think that Wiggins is being mega passive. I know it's the biggest game of his life and he doesn't wanna go break but he just does not bet when he's clearly got the best hand, he's always check calling which I don't like. And personally in that hand, I think he was definitely in the wrong to not re-raise pre with KK, where he may have been able to get rid of Helmuth (although he'd have ended up winning less that way this particular time lol)
I'm just well impressed that Helmuth kept his cool (for the most part). I don't blame him for having a bit of a go at Tony G who just wouldn't leave it.
Hellmuth firmly stated his point of view on a couple of things and mostly left it at that.
People tend to forget that Tony G has the tendancy to be maliciously unpleasant at the table, far worse than Hellmuth whining.
But because its Hellmuth its ok to act this way? Not at all. When Negrenau binks the Q's full over G's turned BW, if Hellmuth (or anyone) had acted in an equal way there would have been major issues. Also you would have definately seen the true nature of G.
Not often a word I'll associate with Hellmuth (admittidly) but he took his lunps without saying a word. I agree in a way that he does court this kind of reaction from his peers, but it still does not make it OK. Double standard for the win.........
Obviously this was only done because it was Hellmuth but if it was me, there's no way I'd have kept my cool as well as Hellmuth did. And I think I deal very well with tilt or rather not tilting. I dunno, maybe it's just cos I know I wouldn't like it doing to me is why I didn't like it. I normally don't mind a bit of people winding Hellmuth up but that was more than normal
hellmuth slowrolls him really badly and there is no denying that
the other pros want the loose cannon to win because:
a) he is a weaker player, weaker play with more money is good for them
b) it makes for a good TV show when the loose cannon is winning
c) tilting hellmuth makes him play even worse and thus they win more money
d) hellmuth tilting also makes for a good TV show
if you're talking about bad etiquette then a more recent episode when tony G tells Hellmuth multiple times that he hasnt looked at his cards after he shoves preflop for $30-40,000 when infact he has looked and holds AK vs hellmuth who ships in AJ, that is terrible etiquette.
Can somone explain why players run a hand again (sometimes as here more than once) i have seen it loads of times but dont know the reasoning behind it.
cheers
Why you'd want to run a couple of times when you're a massive favourite I don't know.
Then with one king gone, the next run was 10%, and on the last down to 6%.
So the chances of him losing 3 in a row were over 1000/1.
As regards behaviour/etiquette, unfortunately in a world of reality TV, the TV companies in their quest for ratings will always feature players like Hellmuth, Laak, Schwartz and TonyG, and will be encouraging conflict.
But yeah, I won't argue it wasn't entertaining to watch, just would have been mighty annoyed if I was Hellmuth.
Also Phil Hellmuth has terrible etiquette so he has opened himself up to taunting like this from other players. If you sit there telling people how bad they are and berating people then you should not be surrprised when people celebrate when you lose. Phil knows this and accepts it i think. He realises its all for tv.
great tv.
to me it looked more like a 'haha I am so far ahead, ieven if we run it loads of times you would hardly ever win, look how good i am'
rather than him being gracious, i think he was being more mean
The loose cannon in this case would be foolish not to run it multiple times he is all in and all of his money is on the line as a huge underdog. If he gets it right 1/4 then he has half his chip stack back. The pot being divided into 4 for the different runs. He still had hands to play so could of got to play on rather than be out.
As stated above i believe it was arrogance of hellmuth as he offered to run it twice then without prompting upped it to three then 4 times.
Tim
He has also been dettered from taking out insurance in hands by directors so upping the hand run is a simple way to reduce his variance.
Doesnt seem to matter what the guy does, people just love to attack him. I dont see that he did a thing wrong, acting with class (for a change) vs the ridic suckouts. How Tony G (and Negranue/Lakk to a lesser degree) come off as good guys here and Hellmuth comes off as the arrogant douc/he is beyond me.
Snap call? He 3bet aiof?
Was good tv i guess though
How would G have reacted if Phil had started laughing and high-fiving Negreanu when he (DN) housed his AK straight on the river?
Pretty funny hand nonetheless, but the reaction stunk of schoolyard behaviour IMO.
All I could think watching this episode was how bad he runs in HSP seasons 1,2 and 3. Where he keeps flopping straights and getting boated or quaded by river. Just strongly felt that if someone had acted the way he did in those pots then it would clearly be out of order, him being the first to say so.
Hellmuth isnt perfect. He is a brat, but he kind have has earned the right to be. Like it or not he is the most accomplished Tournament poker player in history, fact I'm afraid. So when he is being "Hellmuthian" it is coming from a genuine standpoint.
It is very true that he conducts himself badly at times. I think its borne out of the frustration of not getting the credit and respect that he does infact deserve, conversely though it is his attitude and personality that prevent him getting said respect.
You have to take the guy with a pin..... bag of salt. Much of what you see is a performance IMO. He wants people to go after him. Its how he gets paid.
But Negranue/Laak and G's conduct would not have been toterated if it was someone else in the pot.
Also like it or not Hellmuth is great for poker, always has been.
You can read more at the IthinkPHellmuthisadoucheylegend.com
And it's moot, to say the least, that it even was a slow-roll.
As an aside, although he plays up to his persona a lot, almost every pro I've heard talk of Helmuth says he's a total gent away from the table. I doubt the same could be said about TonyG. Negreanu's always struck me as somewhat false too.