balancing ranges and levelling

percival09

i'm basically playing 25NL and a little 50NL, and i've accumulated thousands of hands against certain players .. so they obv have good reads on me ... so how much should i be looking to balance my range against these players? 

flatting monsters IP against them occasionaly? i've read that if i flat 910s on the BTN sometimes, i should flat AA on the BTN sometimes? 

c/r with weak holdings occasionaly post flop instead of only draws/strong holdings, or with what range should i be c/r? 

obv i don't want to be predictable, but i don't know to what extent i should be working on my image! a good example would be, if i hit TPGK against a reg, i'd usually just c/c if i had good reads on how much he barrels, but sometimes should i raise? this seems v.bad because i'm probz not gonna be called by worse, but if i just c/c with these hands isn't it too predictable what i have? 

is it right to play my btn more aggressively if i have a reg to my right? like 3b light against him? CO vs BTN for example .. 

also, levelling ... this is a good example, guy i have thousands of hands against raises btn, i 3b from SB with 88, (mixing it up) .. he basically min 4bets, (he has made 4b bluffs before against me) .. and i just shove with 100BB? is this ok or just spewy? (oh he snapped with 99 lol) 

AMYBR

In Response to balancing ranges and levelling:

i'm basically playing 25NL and a little 50NL, and i've accumulated thousands of hands against certain players .. so they obv have good reads on me ... so how much should i be looking to balance my range against these players?  flatting monsters IP against them occasionaly? i've read that if i flat 910s on the BTN sometimes, i should flat AA on the BTN sometimes?  c/r with weak holdings occasionaly post flop instead of only draws/strong holdings, or with what range should i be c/r?  obv i don't want to be predictable, but i don't know to what extent i should be working on my image! a good example would be, if i hit TPGK against a reg, i'd usually just c/c if i had good reads on how much he barrels, but sometimes should i raise? this seems v.bad because i'm probz not gonna be called by worse, but if i just c/c with these hands isn't it too predictable what i have?  is it right to play my btn more aggressively if i have a reg to my right? like 3b light against him? CO vs BTN for example ..  also, levelling ... this is a good example, guy i have thousands of hands against raises btn, i 3b from SB with 88, (mixing it up) .. he basically min 4bets, (he has made 4b bluffs before against me) .. and i just shove with 100BB? is this ok or just spewy? (oh he snapped with 99 lol) 
Posted by percival09

I think that these are very hard notions to achieve online.  It can be very hard to propagate a particular online image, perhaps its easier here with the community being smaller.

I honestly believe that (for the most part) levelling vs regs evens itself out.  When you sit with people that you know have the capacity to use all the gears, using the gears doesnt become neccessary.  As long as you know the gears are there to be used.

Just knowing that they are there stimulates the desired action. 

The other issue you will have is that we are assuming opponents are paying as much attention as you are.  Live this is easy to achieve and moniter.   Online I think its much trickier.

But experimenting with ranges, bet sizes and layered bets is a must vs frequent flyer opponents.

In losing sessions lately (where I feel no matter the action the deck is going to continue to smack me in the face) I've simply started getting value from the session by pushing the envelope for information.  If I'm likely to lose my BI I may aswell see which regs will call what and where for when I'm not having a bad evening.

DOHHHHHHH

I think pre flop is where it's at.....
Your stats probably appear as rock solid to all your opponents, so you have the ideal image to go ahead and exploit. 
Just have like a short 1 hour 4 tabling session against regs and play SLAGGy, and see how they adapt. 
With the tpgk example I guess you could start leading some flops, or if you start c/raising as a bluff and show it down a couple of times, a cr for value will start to work as he will adapt and call lighter....
I guess with an agro late position dynamic, the 88 v 99 is abit of a cooler! (lol) but if he's 4bet bluffing a decent amount of the time, you can make the shove with stuff like 62s. Like this lol

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancegoldfoxdom Small blind  £0.50 £0.50 £99.50 DOHHHHHHH Big blind  £1.00 £1.50 £110.31   Your hole cards 6 2       AsHigh1 Fold     Stevie_J Fold     NextBest1 Fold     xxRaise  £3.00 £4.50 £244.27 goldfoxdom Fold     DOHHHHHHH Raise  £9.00 £13.50 £101.31 xxRaise  £19.00 £32.50 £225.27 DOHHHHHHH All-in  £101.31 £133.81 £0.00 xxFold     DOHHHHHHH Muck    

Occasionally of course, it doesn't quite work out, like this.....Don't bluff fish who can't fold AQ though Or good players that can see right through you I guess!! lol
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceNextBest1 Small blind  £0.50 £0.50 £97.00 -bogie- Big blind  £1.00 £1.50 £167.62   Your hole cards 9 K       xxxRaise  £3.00 £4.50 £180.97 P2Call  £3.00 £7.50 £109.62 igor1966 Fold     DOHHHHHHH Raise  £12.00 £19.50 £102.22 NextBest1 Fold     -bogie- Fold     xxxFold     P2Raise  £22.00 £41.50 £87.62 DOHHHHHHH All-in  £102.22 £143.72 £0.00 P2All-in  £87.62 £231.34 £0.00 DOHHHHHHH Unmatched bet  £1.60 £229.74 £1.60 P2Show Q A    DOHHHHHHH Show 9 K   
But as a result of playing like a spa zz, and showing down down junk, people adapt and then this kinda thing happens.....

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancetopchipy1 Small blind  £0.50 £0.50 £129.65 jvl Big blind  £1.00 £1.50 £77.02   Your hole cards K K       NextBest1 Fold     xxxRaise  £4.00 £5.50 £96.00 DOHHHHHHH Raise  £12.00 £17.50 £318.95 topchipy1 Fold     jvl Fold     xxxAll-in  £96.00 £113.50 £0.00 DOHHHHHHH Raise  £176.00 £289.50 £142.95 DOHHHHHHH Unmatched bet  £88.00 £201.50 £230.95 xxxShow 8 8    DOHHHHHHH Show K K    Flop    5 10 Q       Turn    Q       River    A       DOHHHHHHH Win Two Pairs, Kings and Queens £199.70  £430.65
Next time I mnay, or may not (probably wont) play like a nit and hopefully these hands will be in the back of players minds. While I'm talking about that, ty for giving me the opportuniuty to advertise in't clinic

Dudeskin8

I'm so happy I don't have to think like this at NL10 lol

DOHHHHHHH

Your nl10 strategy would probably win money @100nl.

After midnight it would anyway.

rancid

range merging is what again :S

Levelling yourself is just madness though ain't it - i thought that he thought that i thought i did not have it-

The thing is lets say your constantly trying to balance/merge/mix up you value and bluffing ranges and none of the hands are going to showdown

I guess if your only 3 or 4 betting with a certain range then lower that range, then this will become part of you bluffing range also :S

yb

yeah when you play against thinking regs it's important to balance your range so that they don't know whether your actions are for value or to bluff. for example, if on certain boards you only raise with a set or strong draw then you probably aren't going to get maximum value from overpairs as you sort of allow them to play perfectly against you. but when they know you can play that way with air also it becomes more difficult for them to fold, especially as generally people remember when you bluff them rather than when you actually have it.

against regs i also 3bet wider for value on the button because it's obviously going to be profitable to play for bigger pots in position (especially when /> 100 bbs deep) and then depending on how they adjust you can be happier getting stacks in lighter against them. against nittier regs you can 3b bluff a ton too when they raise from late position, ideally when you have blockers.

when it's btn vs blind or bvb i don't think you should ever really fold a pair when you 4bet if 100bbs deep so his snap call is good there imo.

yb

and dohh wp with the 62s

pwned

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: balancing ranges and levelling:

Your nl10 strategy would probably win money @100nl. After midnight it would anyway.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Luv the idea of a nl10 player playin after midnite at nl100 , brm ftw )

Seriously tho the moves sum of ya make at this level astound me , guts , guts and more guts ( not talkin bout ure beer belly either ) lolz

Think i see ya post recently bout ya keep only a certain amount in ure acc @ sky and i do exactly that. I keep a min of 5-6 buy ins at nl10 and a bit more for mtts  and sngs , so i dont keep any more than £100 on my acc.

Ive withdrawn £875 so far this year and still got half of that seperate as my bankroll so startin next month gonna move up to nl20 and see how it goes there till december.

Who knows in a couple of years i might be able to play you lot ))

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: balancing ranges and levelling:

In Response to Re: balancing ranges and levelling : Luv the idea of a nl10 player playin after midnite at nl100 , brm ftw ) Seriously tho the moves sum of ya make at this level astound me , guts , guts and more guts ( not talkin bout ure beer belly either ) lolz Think i see ya post recently bout ya keep only a certain amount in ure acc @ sky and i do exactly that. I keep a min of 5-6 buy ins at nl10 and a bit more for mtts  and sngs , so i dont keep any more than £100 on my acc. Ive withdrawn £875 so far this year and still got half of that seperate as my bankroll so startin next month gonna move up to nl20 and see how it goes there till december. Who knows in a couple of years i might be able to play you lot ))
Posted by debdobs_67

If you're moving up to 20nl nxt month, I'll be seeing ya in a couple of days, nevermind a couple of years !!

The moves are born out of drunken stupidity rather than any real thought process. 1 day I hope to move up to 100nl properly, and play properly, and if some 100nl players read these HH's, they are bound to stick in their heads when I come up against em.

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: balancing ranges and levelling:

In Response to Re: balancing ranges and levelling : If you're moving up to 20nl nxt month, I'll be seeing ya in a couple of days, nevermind a couple of years !! The moves are born out of drunken stupidity rather than any real thought process. 1 day I hope to move up to 100nl properly, and play properly, and if some 100nl players read these HH's, they are bound to stick in their heads when I come up against em.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Haha dohhh's masterplan , i luuuuuuuuuuv it xx

EDIT well as for meeting ya in a couple of days methinks i may just sit on a diff table )

sikas

right well i dunno how much players pay attention on here, i cant imagine it will do you that many favours on here with merge ranging unless ur playing 500nl+  

this is my understanding of range merging etc...

its easier for ppl to be much more observant of ranges with a HUD, as for balancing ranges say ur 3bet% is ~3% that means ur 3betting approx JJ-AA, AQs-AKs, and AKo but if u expand ur range to include stuff like K2s-K5s and mebbe Q2s-Q5s n maybe some other suited trash, ur 3bet % will look more like 6-7%+  (which will 'look' like it includes stuff like AJo, KJs and 77) which will attract a wider range of calls/4bets obv half the time u got the NUTS, the other u got trash, but at least suited trash (slightly more equity) and post flop play will b uber straightforward, i.e. to play something like K2 than 10-10  on a J high board (ur less attached to the hand) plus also u do have a 'K' if a K flops  (chance of getting outkicked is similar to villain hitting a set) also you will obv have the initiative in the hand

as for balancing yeah its defo important to play the same hands differently, but i think you should decide how to play ut hands depending on the table dynamic, 'should u just flat that AA in position from the UTG raise to induce a call from the major whale in the BB?' , flat call/re raise that flush draw, yeah mix it up

generally tho, its easier just to choose ur tables carefully and stay away from the regs imo other you'll just end up stealing each others blind or overplaying something

LOL_RAISE

exploiting others > being balanced


dohhh that 5b is pretty spewy! he has to fold almost 66% of the time to breakeven on it

pod1

i here what your saying percival, but i have been playing these levels for 6 mnths and i dont think it is needed at nl30/40 /50. there are very few players who you need to adapt your game to at that level. let me re phrase that, there is more than enough people to make good money from with the game you have.

percival09

i don't play here on sky, the website i play on has a very high number of regs and nits, spesh at 50NL, 80% of the players seem like robots... pretty sure most players have huds, so it is quite important 

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: balancing ranges and levelling:

i don't play here on sky, the website i play on has a very high number of regs and nits, spesh at 50NL, 80% of the players seem like robots... pretty sure most players have huds, so it is quite important 
Posted by percival09

IF ure facing that kind of oppo on the other site wtf are ya doin NOT playin on sky ?? )

pod1

fair enough, why play there if so many good regs at that level? if numb nuts like me can make money at this level here you would make a few bob too :-)

percival09

i just like it better - i like sky, but hate the cash game layouts, tables, the tiling ... everything, it needs a new layout completely imo, then id play

percival09

anyway - just found my stats ... over 145K hands ...     

17/15

3b a total of 6% of my hands, god knows what it's supposed to be, anybody have knowledge on that? and 4% of those 3b were from the btn

fold to 3b 69% of the time?

14% 4b range

fold to 4b 14% of the time

i cbet flop 69%, turn 47% and river 63% ?

fold to c bet 48% on flop, 49% on turn and 33% on river - i only raise a cbet 8% of the time on the flop (which is def bad) 

.. anybody whos good with stats know if these look normalish ? if not, what do i need to work on ? 

sikas

In Response to Re: balancing ranges and levelling:

anyway - just found my stats ... over 145K hands ...      17/15 3b a total of 6% of my hands, god knows what it's supposed to be, anybody have knowledge on that? and 4% of those 3b were from the btn fold to 3b 69% of the time? 14% 4b range fold to 4b 14% of the time i cbet flop 69%, turn 47% and river 63% ? fold to c bet 48% on flop, 49% on turn and 33% on river - i only raise a cbet 8% of the time on the flop (which is def bad)  .. anybody whos good with stats know if these look normalish ? if not, what do i need to work on ? 
Posted by percival09

if u have a HUD u REALLY need to know what the stats 'actually' mean, i suggest getting pokerstove running some ranges, esp working out preflop equity vs Villain hand ranges...

right so ur VPIP is 17% so means ur playing 66+ QTo-AKo JTs-AKs, anyway all this is standard understanding how loose-tight u are etc... all depends on your style

there are MANY more important stats i.e u raise the flop 6% which means u only raise it with pretty much the NUTS 2p+ now if villain has this stat on you and knows what it 'actually' means, it means he can fold out TPTK and overpairs easily

i suggest u run some filters n see where ur leaks are i.e. calling 3bets to set mine is generally a big leak, theres loads

percival09

In Response to Re: balancing ranges and levelling:

In Response to Re: balancing ranges and levelling : if u have a HUD u REALLY need to know what the stats 'actually' mean, i suggest getting pokerstove running some ranges, esp working out preflop equity vs Villain hand ranges... right so ur VPIP is 17% so means ur playing 66+ QTo-AKo JTs-AKs, anyway all this is standard understanding how loose-tight u are etc... all depends on your style there are MANY more important stats i.e u raise the flop 6% which means u only raise it with pretty much the NUTS 2p+ now if villain has this stat on you and knows what it 'actually' means, it means he can fold out TPTK and overpairs easily i suggest u run some filters n see where ur leaks are i.e. calling 3bets to set mine is generally a big leak, theres loads
Posted by sikas

thanks, I do know what the stats mean, i'm just not aware what the reccommended % is if you get me?  

sikas

well theres no 'recommended' % for anything,(obv a a high % VPIP isnt recommended, but it mite b profitable at the right table) any move/style could be more profitable than another depending on the dynamic...

what u mite be interested in is 1 of the HUD software packages (dont think i cna name names) i know have a Global stats filter so u can search for the most profitable players at ur stakes in like a scatter graphs n that and see what their stats are... obv they will be the ones that are best adjusted for those stakes, so could try n aim for similar %'s in ur stats

pod1

if you got holdem manager and go to "leakbuster" it will tell you what is good and what is bad

LOL_RAISE

'14% 4b range' is actually 4bet frequency, i imagine for 4b range will be ~2%

you probably fold to 3bets a bit too much especially as you play relatively tight

bolly580

In Response to Re: balancing ranges and levelling:

I'm so happy I don't have to think like this at NL10 lol
Posted by Dudeskin8

THIS! HAHA

percival09

In Response to Re: balancing ranges and levelling:

if you got holdem manager and go to "leakbuster" it will tell you what is good and what is bad
Posted by pod1

yeah ty was looking into that, might give it a purchase

percival09

In Response to Re: balancing ranges and levelling:

well theres no 'recommended' % for anything,(obv a a high % VPIP isnt recommended, but it mite b profitable at the right table) any move/style could be more profitable than another depending on the dynamic... what u mite be interested in is 1 of the HUD software packages (dont think i cna name names) i know have a Global stats filter so u can search for the most profitable players at ur stakes in like a scatter graphs n that and see what their stats are... obv they will be the ones that are best adjusted for those stakes, so could try n aim for similar %'s in ur stats
Posted by sikas

ty i'll def give it a look!

percival09

In Response to Re: balancing ranges and levelling:

'14% 4b range' is actually 4bet frequency, i imagine for 4b range will be ~2% you probably fold to 3bets a bit too much especially as you play relatively tight
Posted by LOL_RAISE

argh, yes you're correct, 1.9 % lol

ok ty, so i should maybe defend against 3b with JQs 10Js AQ 99-JJ ?  .. and 4b bluffing is good with blockers, Arag for example? 

pod1

if you download it percival you get 14 days trail so it will collect all your hands for you and work it out. if you dont like it the bin it after 14 days, at least you got what your looking for.

.