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The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it...

WHOAMI196WHOAMI196
edited September 2011 in The Poker Clinic
playing NL100 sb 0.50 BB $1

I make a standard open with As10d 3x and get called in the bb by an unknown, The board comes Kc4h4d  so i make a standard c-bet $4.50 (pot$6.18) he calls. The 8d falls on the turn (pot$14) i double barrel and make a bet of $11, oppo calls.

At this point i feel he is weak but has me beat! basically i put him on a pokket pair.

The river brings the 4c the pot is now $35. Villain checks and i make a bet of $45, villain tanks and eventually folds, what do you think of this play.



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Comments

  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited September 2011
    Gr8 stuff imo. 
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  • ybyb
    edited September 2011
    i think that river card is a pretty awful card to bluff, people don't generally like folding full houses
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  • WHOAMI196WHOAMI196
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it...:
    i think that river card is a pretty awful card to bluff, people don't generally like folding full houses
    Posted by yb
    i agree! but a good card in the sense it makes my hand polarised and therefore very difficult to call. 
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  • The_Don90The_Don90
    edited September 2011
    yea im with yb on this one.
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  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited September 2011
    I think you had the best hand whole way.  PP is def calling after calling 2 streets.  I would be hugely surprised if you werent betting best hand here.  For that reason I check back river most of time.
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  • LadyFingrsLadyFingrs
    edited September 2011
    Being polarised is a bad thing when your bluffing though :S

    And nah, I dont like this at all, just check back flop
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it...:
    Being polarised is a bad thing when your bluffing though :S And nah, I dont like this at all, just check back flop
    Posted by LadyFingrs

    this, if u want it to work you probably have to make it ~$60
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  • WHOAMI196WHOAMI196
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it...:
    Being polarised is a bad thing when your bluffing though :S
    Posted by LadyFingrs
    lol please explain why its BAD please! 

    its not bad if you balance your play. having a polarised range here on this board helps with the bluff,  asking the villain to call a large chunk of his stack on a board thats well in my range on a "can only beat a bluff" mentality is really hard esp withought reads and thats what i did here against an unknown player.


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  • WHOAMI196WHOAMI196
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it...:
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it... : this, if u want it to work you probably have to make it ~$60
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    i was thinking of betting bigger,  i think ur right i should have made it closer to 60
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  • WHOAMI196WHOAMI196
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it...:
    I think you had the best hand whole way.  PP is def calling after calling 2 streets.  I would be hugely surprised if you werent betting best hand here.  For that reason I check back river most of time.
    Posted by AMYBR
    you could be right but what if he's got Ax, me personally id be peed off with myself for not betting.

    could you call that river bet with 33,55,66,77 without reads....there is a chance i guess, but how bad would you look if i flipped the k over,lol ........ i would 100% play the hand exactly, over betting the river with kx......if you played me a lot and you knew that i was capable of that. could you still call?.....my point is it is not a snap call on the river with a pocket pair.

    but ur right i could be bluffing a floater lol

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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited September 2011
    Your flop cbet is massive for this board. I would sometimes check back if you bet I think you have to barrell

    meh, I dont like the river readless, although I agree its pretty tough for him to call with pocket pairs. People dont like folding boats though and he can also have K himself
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  • BLACK_MASSBLACK_MASS
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it...:
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it... : i was thinking of betting bigger,  i think ur right i should have made it closer to 60
    Posted by WHOAMI196
    I don't understand this bit. If you are getting called you are  behind anyway. So why waste the extra ? Does the difference between the 2 amounts achieve anything different ?
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  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it...:
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it... : you could be right but what if he's got Ax, me personally id be peed off with myself for not betting. could you call that river bet with 33,55,66,77 without reads....there is a chance i guess, but how bad would you look if i flipped the k over,lol ........ i would 100% play the hand exactly, over betting the river with kx......if you played me a lot and you knew that i was capable of that. could you still call?.....my point is it is not a snap call on the river with a pocket pair. but ur right i could be bluffing a floater lol
    Posted by WHOAMI196
    I see utterly no reason to fold river with PP after calling flop and turn bets.  If I have called those streets then yes I snap river with that type of hand. 
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it...:
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it... : lol please explain why its BAD please!  its not bad if you balance your play. having a polarised range here on this board helps with the bluff,  asking the villain to call a large chunk of his stack on a board thats well in my range on a "can only beat a bluff" mentality is really hard esp withought reads and thats what i did here against an unknown player.
    Posted by WHOAMI196
    polarised basically means you either having Kx beat or you have air, so to villain 55 is the same hand as a king,
    besides card removal for KK

    you want to bluff alot when you have a wide value range. your value range on this board looks like KK,AA,4x
    i would like it ALOT better if it was a T444x board where you can be overbetting JJ+ for value

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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it...:
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it... : I don't understand this bit. If you are getting called you are  behind anyway. So why waste the extra ? Does the difference between the 2 amounts achieve anything different ?
    Posted by BLACK_MASS
    we are repping such a narrow value range and are trying to get him to fold a strong hand, that i think we need to bet very big to give him a worse price, and thus make him have to be correct with this call a higher % of the time
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  • BLACK_MASSBLACK_MASS
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it...:
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it... : we are repping such a narrow value range and are trying to get him to fold a strong hand, that i think we need to bet very big to give him a worse price, and thus make him have to be correct with this call a higher % of the time
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    Ok man thanx. So what we need to do is massively overbet made hands AND bluffs . More AGGRESSION = more profit + fun. Is this to do with balancing ranges ? Value bet bluffs are effeminate and more likely to get called ? We need to stop this ?
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  • LOL_RAISELOL_RAISE
    edited September 2011
    i would only massively overbet if i was repping a super super thin value range. i think normally if im to overbet i would make it 1.2-1.3x the pot

    nothing to do with balancing ranges really..i dont think you should have a balanced overbetting range in most scenarios as the whole point of them is to exploit the villain
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  • WHOAMI196WHOAMI196
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it...:
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it... : polarised basically means you either having Kx beat or you have air, so to villain 55 is the same hand as a king, besides card removal for KK you want to bluff alot when you have a wide value range. your value range on this board looks like KK,AA,4x i would like it ALOT better if it was a T444x board where you can be overbetting JJ+ for value
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    i see what you mean m8.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited September 2011

    Well I still like it, so nerrrr :P
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  • WHOAMI196WHOAMI196
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it...:
    Well I still like it, so nerrrr :P
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    hahahaha thanks m8,

    its only something i have started doing only reacently, suppose against a good thinking player they may have snapped me off with a pocket pair.
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it...:
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it... : hahahaha thanks m8, its only something i have started doing only reacently, suppose against a good thinking player they may have snapped me off with a pocket pair.
    Posted by WHOAMI196
    Why though? I'd argue the opposite...

    A fish is more likely to snap u off, a good player can only really put you on a King without reads that you've done this before. I'd be vvvv confident that you have Kx. 

    On the river, you can either give up, or overbet for value.

    I think they are your only 2 options, as making a standard V bet would deffo get called.....

    Line is consistant throughout the hand, and it's a good situation to overbet. 

    -----------------

    But then again I play 30nl, and people who have argued your line is bad play 200nl throught to 1000nl...

    So theres a clue about who you should listen to. lol

    Gets a wp from me anyway.


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  • WHOAMI196WHOAMI196
    edited September 2011
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it...:
    In Response to Re: The Over-bet-Bluff....working on it... : Why though? I'd argue the opposite... A fish is more likely to snap u off, a good player can only really put you on a King without reads that you've done this before. I'd be vvvv confident that you have Kx.  On the river, you can either give up, or overbet for value. I think they are your only 2 options, as making a standard V bet would deffo get called..... Line is consistant throughout the hand, and it's a good situation to overbet.  /QUOTE]

    +1

    i dont think you can categorise plays as  "right or wrong" in poker, theres just a bunch of different scenarios and probabilities but theres always an optimum way of playing em. i play 4 tables MAX and im only lucky enough to play NL100 only a month ago after a constant sick run in cash and tourneys. i play mostly by gut feeling, instinct i guess and play far from ABC poker but got a hell of a lot to learn. 

    BTW Nl30 - NL1000 i will listen to any winning players advice, although it might not allways seem that i do ;)
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited September 2011
    Why would a standard vbet size certainly get called?

    Whats the worst hand we can overbet for value here?

    Whats the worst hand we can bet maybe 2/3 pot for value?

    I agree its a tough call for villain with a pocket pair, but he may be a fish and even if he's not our value range has to be pretty narrow here
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