Tell me how bad I play plz

scotty77

Player had just gave me a stack in LOLest way possible.  He had open shoved 100+ in PF when pots were a pound a couple of times. 

Hand History #198968429 (01:07 18/10/2009)PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceEVILEDNASmall blind £0.50£0.50£115.01scotty77Big blind £1.00£1.50£195.31 Your hole cardsKJ   BOOTYDADDYFold    daniel1973Call £1.00£2.50£121.63ajs4385Fold    ParaquatFold    EVILEDNAFold    scotty77Check    Flop  J106   scotty77Check    daniel1973Bet £2.50£5.00£119.13scotty77Call £2.50£7.50£192.81Turn  10   scotty77Check    daniel1973Bet £6.00£13.50£113.13scotty77Call £6.00£19.50£186.81River  10   scotty77Check    daniel1973All-in £113.13£132.63£0.00scotty77Fold    daniel1973Muck    daniel1973Win £131.66 £131.66

Hale72

You have to fold here, even if he is buying.

Massive overbet on a twenty quid pot.

Keep your hard earned for a better time. Don't let it get to you.

JingleMa

Well, you've got 2nd nuts and only losing to one card in the deck.

Also, if he's been playing like you say he has, how can you fold?

Then again, I don't play cash so you should probably ignore all of the above! 8- />

scotty77

Yeah well I'm torn.  I'd stacked him a few hands before and tbh I didn't feel like giving him the moniez back so soon (although he did river me on 50nl a couple of hours later).

The way I look at it is that it is 50pc more likely he has a J than a T.  However I have 9.50 invested, and while he is playing like a maniac, my notes from playing him a few other times that he will overshove what he perceives to be the nutz.  He does not think that a 6 is the nutz here.  So I'm either splitting or losing.  I think it is very unlikely that I win that pot often given the action.

So I can either call and hope to get my 9.50 back (minus rake) or I can call and lose a 125bb limped pot to the table donk and wait for a far better spot where I can build the pot myself when I am confident I am ahead.

Hale72

6th nuts.

Losing to aces, kings, queens, jacks or any loose ten.

Still a very tough fold but still I would have to, but then again, I don't play for those stakes as a call for over 100 quid would put me in casualty.

So, ignore me, I'm probably way out as when the amount of the pot affects your game, your on the wrong level.

JingleMa

Oops, yes 6th nuts.

Never mind cash, I just shouldn't be playing poker! 8- />

OMahonyO

not sure what part you are saying is bad. I reckon I am always folding there.
I probably wouldve led on the flop though, or at least check raised.....but Im on life tilt at the mo and running like the antarctic so I more than likely wudda stacked off here lol

Hale72

In Response to Re: Tell me how bad I play plz:

Oops, yes 6th nuts. Never mind cash, I just shouldn't be playing poker! 8- />
Posted by JingleMa

LOL,

Don't worry, it genuinly took me 6 hours to realise he had a full house, it was only your post that got me checking the hand again.

Those timer bars go down way too quick if it takes me that long to notice a FH! Even a time bank wouldn't have saved my blushes here.

I thought the all in bet was on the turn!!!!!

JingleMa

Lol, thanks Hale, I feel much better now! 8- />

scotty77

As a side note, if there wasn't a T on the river I call so fast

johns0122

CALL
CALL
CALL

oynutter

hi scotty--checking the flop here against this type of player was a mistake imo---he may have been much less likely to push all in on you if you had bet the two thirds of the pot here---failing that a re-raise of twice his bet would have done the same job---risky i know, but playing this kind of player always is---any check will leave you open to a bluff from these types so if you prefer to play a less risky strategy, you really should'nt bother with this type of player---they steal every pot they think they can---nick half his chips and run away----lol--good luck mate

Sky_Dave

Scotty,

That is a 'wow' hand, with most of the emphasis going on the 'ow' part. For what it's worth, here's what I reckon:

Pre-flop.

I don't mind the check with KJo in the big blind as it adds deception to your hand should you make it. A raise is also find, in my opinion, and I think it's a case of mixing it up so your opponent doesn't get used to your hand ranges. I might lean more towards a preflop raise, just to take the initiative in the hand, even though you are out of position. Either is good.

On the flop.

I am not a big fan of the check call. You've hit a pretty nice flop and you know the guy is playing spewy according to your history. I'd lead 80% of the time here, only check-calling if you're genuinely reading him for an overpair. I might stack off too light, but the point here (as I see it) is that this guy is going to be prone to paying-off and/or tilting. 

Check-raising might be an option, but it feels a little too aggro considering you have a one-pair hand out of position and you might not want to bloat the pot at this point. A check raise on the turn however would be a little better, I feel.

Bet > Check Raise > Check Call

Turn

See above, mainly. I like check-raising here as you might be able to fold out KJ/AJ, as well as stopping him from going bonkers with an overpair now the board has paired. Well, it ought to stop him from going bonkers...

Again, leading isn't a bad option either. Check-calling is essentially making your hand look weak now and seems to peg it as either a weak jack or some kind of draw/underpair. 

Check Raise > Bet > Check Call

River.

The problem we have now is that by 'rope-a-doping' during the previous streets we now have very little definition on HIS hand. It could still feasible be anything from a Jack, overpair, the case ten, or total air. Still, that is the problem which comes from previous streets. How best to play this one?

He's limped pre, so you almost want to count out the overpair idea. That said, if he's aware of how his image looks, he might be utilising that and making a massive jam to give the impression he's stealing. Personally, it sounds like he wasn't thinking on that level though (again, going from your previous comment about him stacking for 100+BBs pre).

Could he be doing this with a mid-pair such as 55-99? Perhaps, but again it's suicidal stuff if so. That leaves us with Js/T/air.

Your hand has been under-represented the whole way, which almost encourages him to shove on you or make some outrageous play. I think I personally fold and kick my own ass for playing the previous streets this way. You've played it tricky and ultimately it's left you with a very nasty decision to play OOP. 

I appreciate you're a thinking player and might disagree with some of my thoughts here, but I am just offering how I would think this hand out if I were in your shoes...

Good luck.

Dave

Tikay10

I Pass. I can find a better spot to get his money later.

I played a serial jammer in a Tourney last night, with a few hundred in the Pot he just kept shoving for 8k or 9k. Everyone sat there saying nothing, then he did it for the 10th or 12th time, & got looked up. I don't need to tell you what he was looked up by.

Sky_Dave

Just out of curiosity Tikay, what do you put the jammer on in this hand or do you frankly not care because the spot is so difficult?

Tikay10

In Response to Re: Tell me how bad I play plz:

Just out of curiosity Tikay, what do you put the jammer on in this hand or do you frankly not care because the spot is so difficult?
Posted by Sky_Dave

I'm really not quite sure what he may or may not have, & I don't know the player.

And as there is considerable dount in my mind, & I only have two bob invested in the Pot, I would let go routinely here.

Meta-game instinct tells me that if I give this player enough rope, they'll hang themselvs eventually, & I can wait. And wait. And wait. In due course, a better spot will come.

Remember, we don't know the meta-game here. If the guy has been doing this every other hand, then we can take a different line, & use this as the moment when we spring the trap, because we are "probably" good here.

I don't think surviving at poker is about individul hands, or Tourneys. It's much longer term, & if we leave a bit of value behind now & then, no sweat, it's money invested for later, when we know exactly where we are.

LadyFingrs

If he limps big pairs UTG in 6-max then thats totally read dependant. Given that you didnt actually post any reads that specific, i'd take those out his range. AP, I don't hate folding the river as we're getting like 5/6 on a tie (best case scenario). If he's a big enough spewtard to barrel you here to try and get you to fold a jack, then thats a descision you have to make based off the dynamic between you and not off the advice the forum gives you.

But why are we not betting this flop?

Definately b/c flop.

webby234

tough decision, all depends on what feel you have on the table and the player you are involved with, stats can be great but there is nothing better than knowing you have somebodys number

fitzer14

this is a tough one scotty m8.

Having only the information for the one hand.If i had been sat at the table with the same player for at least 15 hands
i would like to think i would of been able to of made the correct decision,whether it be call or fold,based on the info i have gathered.At least you know you never made the wrong decision as the cost was minimal,though we will never know if you made the "right" decision if you know what i mean.

  Anyway GL at the tables m8,enjoy your poker.

webby234

very well said fitzer!

scotty77

wow ok this is gonna take some time to digest, will reply later on when i got my thinking cap on.  cheers guys for the input.

oynutter

In Response to Re: Tell me how bad I play plz:

wow ok this is gonna take some time to digest, will reply later on when i got my thinking cap on.  cheers guys for the input.
Posted by scotty77

Come on scotty!--you only had 20 seconds to make that decision----it's been 3 days now!!---lol--only messin ya mate--but dying to know what you think--as tikay said --you are a great thinking player, and it's a very interesting dilemma---personally, i would'nt even have sat down here. but really interested because I am tempted to get into cash games---I know from playing heads up with you in the deep stack final that you are a brave fella, and capable of taking a few risks in tourney play---but in cash games we really are put in situations that could cost us dear---one day my bankroll might allow me to play lolufold---(lol)--, so your answer here really interests me---great post---good luck mate--oynutter

scotty77

 I might lean more towards a preflop raise, just to take the initiative in the hand, even though you are out of position [/QUOTE]

I agree that a raise might be good, as it makes each street far easier to play with the pot bloated.  However I was aware of my position so I think I check versus this villain most of the time.

 Bet > Check Raise > Check Call[/QUOTE]

At this point I was fairly sure that I had the best hand.  I think that open betting here is bad tho, but a check raise is def the way to go.  TBH I would usually check raise, I don't really know why I check called now thinking about it.  If I had check raised it would have probably gone all in flop which I woulda been very happy with.

 See above, mainly. I like check-raising here as you might be able to fold out KJ/AJ, as well as stopping him from going bonkers with an overpair now the board has paired. Well, it ought to stop him from going bonkers.. . [/QUOTE]

This villain was never folding a J.  Again check call is so bad, I agree with you.  I think I played it passively because of the other hands he had played where he over-valued his hands and did the betting for me.  I was gonna get it in on most rivers, bar an A/Q/7.

 Your hand has been under-represented the whole way, which almost encourages him to shove on you or make some outrageous play. I think I personally fold and kick my own as sfor playing the previous streets this way .

I don't think he is ever bluffing once the river gets here.  I wasn't actually that worried about him having quads, and an overpair is never there.  However the main reason why I folded was that I couldn't see how I can win.  I reckon my kicker was good, so if the river was a blank like a 3 or something I check and insta call. 

From playing with the villain a few more times, I reckon he makes the shove with any J here so KJ is gonna be good as I think AJ gets raised up PF.  I just didnt want to take a 115bb risk to split the pot, with the slight chance he had a T for the quads.

Very passivly played by me, and a C/R on the flop would have made my decisions a lot, lot easier.

LadyFingrs

lol, our hand is not under-represented.

Pretty face up actually, which makes it even more of a fold as he prob wouldn't expect us to fold a J.