Reading straights and straight draws on the flop....

unknown_username

Got mauled the other evening, after I had flopped two pair (I think) and shoved . . . think it was something like a 6,8,9 on the board. The caller had flopped a straight, and was holding 5,7o.

Question; how do you read this one? The odds on flopping a straight with two random cards within a range, with two potential open drawers at both ends is c75-1.

Would appreciate any thoughts on how you'd get a read on a hand like this, or whether it's even worth considering such occurances bearing in mind the odds? Straights are something I'll consider with paint cards within a range on the table or where there's a potential straight available to someone and I can make a judgement call based on calling/raising behaviour, but from cold should I just put it down to a case of "he got lucky".

Thinking back on it, of all of the big hands I lose that aren't chasers hitting a drawer, where I'm just plain out-played it's generally a straight drawer that inflicts the damage.

Comments?

debdobs_67

Well first of all was it a cash game?? cos ya may be able to gauge an idea from previous hands if player is limpin in alot OR callin off raises then foldin to c-bets that dont have st8ty draws on them , as this could suggest players range of startin hands is very wide and may be playin alot of combo hands like 57 68 78 89 etc etc.
This is the benefit of takin notes cos alot of the time its not that hard to see if theyve hit a flop like the one you describe and when they wanna start playin a big pot like this ya can get off of ure big hands like ure overpairs to the board

EDIT just noticed you had 2 pair on flop so pretty hard to get away from that instance tbh

harding10

Need a bit more info. Have a go at posting the hand history.

Was it a limped pot? Were you in the BB? If the answer to either of those is no, at lower levels you shouldn't be involved the hand.

sillymunch

im taking it you had 89s, if so it would depend on your position, from an early position throw em away, from late position it may be ok to limp in, then again it depends on the level aswell as people have stated at lower levels you want as little work after the flop as possible, at later levels things can change

grantorino

Try put people on a reasonable range rather than a specific hand

Need more info on hand, but if you flopped two pair in a raised pot  in general its ok to go broke <100BB deep

AMYBR

For myself its not simply a case of have they got the made hand as it is how likely are they getting it in with high equity in the hand. 

Example being you hold KK.  Opponent is aggro and you find yourself playing for potential stacks on a:

678r board.  For 100 BB's how comfortable are you when opponent flips A9/5?  56/44.  Regardless of if they have the made hand, how much are you willing to get in on a coinflip? 

678 board, you hold (example) 67 vs 910 - 17/83 vs made hand.  56/44 vs a standardish draw.  Im not loving either so fill be very inclined to pot control.  Risk averse I know, but that doesnt have to be a bad thing.

We dont have to take races with marginal edges.  It is ok to fold to draws depending on money invested and depth of stack

grantorino

In Response to Re: Reading straights and straight draws on the flop....:

For myself its not simply a case of have they got the made hand as it is how likely are they getting it in with high equity in the hand.  Example being you hold KK.  Opponent is aggro and you find yourself playing for potential stacks on a: 678r board.  For 100 BB's how comfortable are you when opponent flips A9/5?  56/44.  Regardless of if they have the made hand, how much are you willing to get in on a coinflip?  678 board, you hold (example) 67 vs 910 - 17/83 vs made hand.  56/44 vs a standardish draw.  Im not loving either so fill be very inclined to pot control.  Risk averse I know, but that doesnt have to be a bad thing.
Posted by AMYBR

You are giving situations where you are behind their ranges and not including hands you may crush, but in fairness this will be the case sometimes. How much is already in pot relative to stacksize also  has a huge bearing on the decision though

AMYBR

Yeah it is pretty specific.  As said, on investment and stack size.  But if your being played at hard this is going to be their mid through optimum range.

unknown_username

It was an SnG and I was running short stacked. The other player had been playing pretty aggresively and been stealing blinds with shoves. I raised a single BB raise to test the water and he re-raised with a 4xBB re-raise. I put him on a pair and jammed it all in. Mistake on my part. In hindsight I could have called it  - and seen whether my hand improved to a FH or if a forth straight card had hit the board and the writing would then have been on the wall. Learning point I think.

BigRonnieC

You can never be certain if someone has the 2 cards for the straight, a made hand, an up and down etc or just a complete bluff. If you could infallibly put them on a hand it would be easy for you!

As people said it's highly situational:

-Has the player played a lot of pots?
- />If so, it's more likely when he shows interest in a flop with low cards that he has something. Someone
 who plays lots of pots (esp limping and folds to 3 bets pf) is more likely to have ANY 2 cards, especially connecting, suited or gapped connectors.

-How does he react to your aggression on the flop?
If he reraises or calls a large bet be prepared to slow down. If you were aggressive and bet out strongly, chances are he has a hand.

-Past actions
- />Has he slow played or bet aggressively with big hands/made hands?

Sometimes you will lay down the best hand (esp if 4 to a straight come and he only had top pair etc) but it happens.