Right to call pre and on the flop?

MP33

I,m already 5 buy ins down on NL10 and if i lose this £30 + then its really not a good nigh but still playing within BR.

Not to much action on this table and I decide its my last orbit, when I pick up KQs with the button

Its Nl20 and I don,t see anything wrong with seeing a flop multi-way in position. Could be dominated but in a multi way pot i,m looking for str8,s , flushes or FH - at least for a decent pot

I miss/hit the flop  (wichever way you look at it) hard and couldn,t expect many better ones - Then the money just goes flying in and its now down to pot odds which makes my decision for me

also its the Nut Flush and the Nut str8 I,m chasing on a non-paired board - I snap call

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
zinobino04	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£11.78
bustout44	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£18.95
	Your hole cards	K Q
TT2001	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£29.25
painy12	Raise		£1.40	£2.30	£33.35
snapper725	Fold
MP33	Call		£1.40	£3.70	£34.28
zinobino04	Call		£1.30	£5.00	£10.48
bustout44	Call		£1.20	£6.20	£17.75
TT2001	Call		£0.80	£7.00	£28.45
Flop
		5 A 10
zinobino04	Check
bustout44	Check
TT2001	Check
painy12	Bet		£2.60	£9.60	£30.75
MP33	Call		£2.60	£12.20	£31.68
zinobino04	Call		£2.60	£14.80	£7.88
bustout44	Fold
TT2001	All-in		£28.45	£43.25	£0.00
painy12	All-in		£30.75	£74.00	£0.00
MP33	Call		£30.75	£104.75	£0.93
zinobino04	All-in		£7.88	£112.63	£0.00
zinobino04	Show	J K
TT2001	Show	8 10
painy12	Show	A A
MP33	Show	K Q
Turn
		6
River
		J
MP33	Win	Flush to the Ace	£110.83		£111.76

All comments appreciated - Hand History #412525779

percival09

you don't see anything wrong with cold calling a 3b from early position w/ KQs? v.horrible call - you're hugely dominated by villains 3b range in early position, it'll be v.spewy in the long run
obv post flop is standard but pre is bad

you'd have to much deeper imo to clarify a call - the effective stack would have to be atleast 250BB and you'd have to have good reads

Lambert180

Yeah I agree, you're gonna be miles behind his 3bet range here. Since when did you start playing 20NL? Are you sure you're playing within your bankroll? If so, your BR must have shot up quickly because I'd wanna have at least £400 to even take a shot. Postflop is pretty standard.

AMYBR

Lol I think you know how bad this is but I'm happy it worked out for you

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop?:

Yeah I agree, you're gonna be miles behind his 3bet range here. Since when did you start playing 20NL? Are you sure you're playing within your bankroll? If so, your BR must have shot up quickly because I'd wanna have at least £400 to even take a shot. Postflop is pretty standard.
Posted by Lambert180

Well ive got much more than 20 buy-ins for nl20 and i still THINK thts not enough , thats why i decided to wait until i get 40 buy-ins b4 givin it a shot , and when i say ive got more than 20 buy-ins i dont mean my sky roll but i mean my poker bankroll

AMYBR

Do you not think there are cons in regard to playing below your BR debdobs?

Lambert180

I agree with you Debs, I still think 20BIs is very loose in terms of BRM. It's only since being on here I've heard of people doing it but I think they only really do it for 4NL - 10NL where if you're good, variance should be lower than normal.

I was just saying how it's understandable if someone (I wouldn't) wants to take a shot when they have 20BIs for 20NL but I certainly don't recommend it with a BR of £300 which is what I hear it is via the 4NL diary thread.

I mean if you stop and think, you've just won 1 pot which is more than third of your entire BR, and you could have just as easily LOST that pot which is over a third of your BR (I don't mean you'd have lost 1/3 of your BR in one hand, because you didn't contribute it all). And in my opinion you should never be winning a pot that is like 'Oh my god, i just won **** loads'. Because it works both ways, you can equally lose a pot of the same size and I don't think it's good for your health if you're getting stressed out about losing big hands and over excited about winning big ones which you naturally will with a pot this size. I don't think you should have much emotion in your game because it'll put you under loads of pressure with the ups and downs of variance. Winning a pot should almost not even matter, it's just about making the right decisions.

Can you really afford to make the right decision but lose (for stacks) 5 times and be £100 down?

MP33

the question wasn,t really about the bankroll although i was 2 tabling NL10 as a bit of a trial for an hour instead of 4 tabling Nl10, which is why i was coming off at the time as I realised I,m not rolled fro NL20 yet.

its only been less than 2 weeks from NL4 , so will stick with NL10 2-3 tabling - BR now £377 from £150

I think Painy played it badly by not raising more pre and letting me in

Ok _ preflop - maybe should lay it down. having said that I,m not as nitty as I used to be and like to play a lot weaker hands sometimes to alter my image and when best to do it but whe n your in position

MP33

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop?:

I agree with you Debs, I still think 20BIs is very loose in terms of BRM. It's only since being on here I've heard of people doing it but I think they only really do it for 4NL - 10NL where if you're good, variance should be lower than normal. I was just saying how it's understandable if someone (I wouldn't) wants to take a shot when they have 20BIs for 20NL but I certainly don't recommend it with a BR of £300 which is what I hear it is via the 4NL diary thread. I mean if you stop and think, you've just won 1 pot which is more than third of your entire BR, and you could have just as easily LOST that pot which is over a third of your BR (I don't mean you'd have lost 1/3 of your BR in one hand, because you didn't contribute it all). And in my opinion you should never be winning a pot that is like 'Oh my god, i just won **** loads'. Because it works both ways, you can equally lose a pot of the same size and I don't think it's good for your health if you're getting stressed out about losing big hands and over excited about winning big ones which you naturally will with a pot this size. I don't think you should have much emotion in your game because it'll put you under loads of pressure with the ups and downs of variance. Winning a pot should almost not even matter, it's just about making the right decisions. Can you really afford to make the right decision but lose (for stacks) 5 times and be £100 down?
Posted by Lambert180

i agree
That was the biggest pot i,ve played in 3 weeks by quite a margin, but thats a good way of looking at things

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop?:

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop? : Well ive got much more than 20 buy-ins for nl20 and i still THINK thts not enough , thats why i decided to wait until i get 40 buy-ins b4 givin it a shot , and when i say ive got more than 20 buy-ins i dont mean my sky roll but i mean my poker bankroll
Posted by debdobs_67

Just my opinion Debs but I'd get on NL20 asap, if you have over 20 BI's then you'll be fine. You would have to experiance some AWFUL run bad to go below £400 again and even if you do just slot back onto NL10 simplez.

Also with playing higher you can start winning more as a percentage as once you have 20 BI's winning pots at same level become less significant like me playing NL4 with a £300 roll for instance plus or minus is irrelevent.

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop?:

the question wasn,t really about the bankroll although i was 2 tabling NL10 as a bit of a trial for an hour instead of 4 tabling Nl10, which is why i was coming off at the time as I realised I,m not rolled fro NL20 yet. its only been less than 2 weeks from NL4 , so will stick with NL10 2-3 tabling - BR now £377 from £150 I think Painy played it badly by not raising more pre and letting me in Ok _ preflop - maybe should lay it down. having said that I,m not as nitty as I used to be and like to play a lot weaker hands sometimes to alter my image 
Posted by MP33

No you played it badly calling a 3bet with KQ lol

MP33

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop?:

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop? : No you played it badly calling a 3bet with KQ lol
Posted by Dudeskin8

LOL - We,ll agree to disagree

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop?:

I think Painy played it badly by not raising more pre and letting me in 
Posted by MP33

LMAO i think everyone played their hand badly tbf lol

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop?:

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop? : Just my opinion Debs but I'd get on NL20 asap, if you have over 20 BI's then you'll be fine. You would have to experiance some AWFUL run bad to go below £400 again and even if you do just slot back onto NL10 simplez. Also with playing higher you can start winning more as a percentage as once you have 20 BI's winning pots at same level become less significant like me playing NL4 with a £300 roll for instance plus or minus is irrelevent.
Posted by Dudeskin8

I agree with ya in principle but surely in the main ya gotta agree that 10nl on the whole is pretty easy money and as i said i dont think i would play optimely if i felt my bankroll wasnt enough.
Did ya hear Tikay the other night when he stated ' why be in a rush to move up just cos ure rolled when its easy to make money a level lower'
I think this does make sense

Lambert180

Yeah it makes alot of sense Debs. If you can make 2 BIs a session at 4NL (£8) and it's a breeze, why play 8NL if you struggle to make 1 BI per session (still £8). Bad example because the games at 4NL and 8NL are basically identical but the theory is sound and it does apply to higher levels. Sometimes you can beat a higher level but still have a lower hourly rate than at the lower level.

SHANXTA

think i'd struggle to fold this pre, on the button, and over 150 bbs deep vs the 2 players

as played id be tempted 2 raise the weak flop lead, althou i may just call

whether or not u shud call off on the flop depends on the range u put them on and ur equity vs it

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop?:

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop? : I agree with ya in principle but surely in the main ya gotta agree that 10nl on the whole is pretty easy money and as i said i dont think i would play optimely if i felt my bankroll wasnt enough. Did ya hear Tikay the other night when he stated ' why be in a rush to move up just cos ure rolled when its easy to make money a level lower' I think this does make sense
Posted by debdobs_67

Well it's hard for me to answer this properly as I've NEVER played NL20 consistently and don't really know how different it is to NL10 but it's fair to say I've seen planty of awful players through various clinic posts, I railed a table a few weeks back for 20 minutes and there were certainly bad players there and this was some random table I picked out so I'd imagine overall there are enough fish to make money.

But overall it's probably a good thing the way you're doing it which is much better than trying it with LESS than 20 BI's lol

grantorino

Dont know why everyone is slating the call pre. I prob fold, but its dependent on players . 150BB deep ip I would certainly be tempted

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop?:

Dont know why everyone is slating the call pre. I prob fold, but its dependent on players . 150BB deep ip I would certainly be tempted
Posted by grantorino

Well i aint slated it , in fact if ya look on the don_90's thread (mp33 posted the hand on there as well) ya can read the comment i made

offshoot

you should fold pre or youre gonna get horribly stacked every time you flop a K or Q. Also you shouldnt really justify your call by saying he raised too small.

MP33

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop?:

you should fold pre or youre gonna get horribly stacked every time you flop a K or Q. Also you shouldnt really justify your call by saying he raised too small.
Posted by offshoot

Appreciate the advice offshoot, but I,m not getting stacked just with a K or Q. I could still get away from it without getting stacked if thats all i,ve hit

some interesting points above  for playing it different ways

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop?:

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop? : Appreciate the advice offshoot, but I,m not getting stacked just with a K or Q. I could still get away from it without getting stacked if thats all i,ve hit some interesting points above  for playing it different ways
Posted by MP33

But you would most likely not fold to ONE bet on flop and then if turn is a blank you gonna fold TPGK, I doubt it tbh, and then it seems the only reason you're calling pre is to hit a big draw but then you're still behind and have to hit i.e. get lucky. All round it ain't great imo.

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop?:

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop? : But you would most likely not fold to ONE bet on flop and then if turn is a blank you gonna fold TPGK, I doubt it tbh, and then it seems the only reason you're calling pre is to hit a big draw but then you're still behind and have to hit i.e. get lucky. All round it ain't great imo.
Posted by Dudeskin8

Prob not great tbh , but i see this play at higher levels than 10/20p and i dont mean just by rec players either

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop?:

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop? : Prob not great tbh , but i see this play at higher levels than 10/20p and i dont mean just by rec players either
Posted by debdobs_67

If you have VERY solid reads on players that they 3bet light and even open light then possibly you can do this, but as MP33 said he was 'taking a shot' at NL20 and hence I can't imagine he has brilliant reads and hence should just play ABC before he builds them up.

rancid

spew call pre, very speculative as long as your not stacking if a K or Q hits flop or even if you hit 1 pr your folding right - easily dominated

You gotta know your looking to flop 2 pr min, even if you flop 2 pr you could easily be behind to a set

as played - shove flop - flatting here does nothing, only leads to a blank turn and you fold, stick it to em.

Long term calling here your losing money, once in a blue moon your going to flop big even then the effective stack need to be at least 200BB

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop?:

In Response to Re: Right to call pre and on the flop? : If you have VERY solid reads on players that they 3bet light and even open light then possibly you can do this, but as MP33 said he was 'taking a shot' at NL20 and hence I can't imagine he has brilliant reads and hence should just play ABC before he builds them up.
Posted by Dudeskin8

Yeah i think that is spot on