IF i was the oppo

debdobs_67

Just want some thoughts here , if i was the oppo should i just check the river OR should ya shove ??

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
dolphy	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£3.28
debdobs_67	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£23.78
	Your hole cards	A K
yyy	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£19.96
LANCEY	Fold
jutka9	Fold
dgw69	Fold
dolphy	Call		£0.50	£1.40	£2.78
debdobs_67	Call		£0.40	£1.80	£23.38
Flop
		9 K 4
dolphy	Check
debdobs_67	Bet		£0.90	£2.70	£22.48
yyy	Raise		£3.60	£6.30	£16.36
dolphy	Fold
debdobs_67	Call		£2.70	£9.00	£19.78
Turn
		2
debdobs_67	Check
yyy	Bet		£6.80	£15.80	£9.56
debdobs_67	Call		£6.80	£22.60	£12.98
River
		9
debdobs_67	Check
yyy	All-in		£9.56	£32.16	£0.00
debdobs_67	Call		£9.56	£41.72	£3.42
debdobs_67	Show	A K
yyy	Show	A J
debdobs_67	Win	Two Pairs, Kings and 9s	£39.92		£43.34

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Dudeskin8

3bet pre.

Oh and nice brag thread.....

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: IF i was the oppo:

3bet pre. Oh and nice brag thread.....
Posted by Dudeskin8

No No No , dont need to 3bet pre here as oppo wasnt playin very strong hands with his pre flop raise so when ya can hit as big as i did he aint puttin me on AK is he ?? seen alot of players play AK this way at nl20-nl50

PS what about an answer to my question ?? i always give an answer to ure threads , if YOU was the oppo and you HAD taken his line would you just check back the river OR shove ??

jugglegeek

His shove on the end is only half the pot. I don't think he has enough in his stack to have any fold equity against any pair. You have pot odds of 3:1 on your money so I would expect my opponent to call with hands that are beating me.

Seriously what hands can AJ be beating? JTh & QTh would probably have played the flop differently with their massive draw. Maybe you could have AT. In my oppinion if he checks he is most likely going to lose the hand, but he saves half his stack. And in the unlikely event that you have AT you probably won't call for £10 anyway.

Am I right?

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: IF i was the oppo:

His shove on the end is only half the pot. I don't think he has enough in his stack to have any fold equity against any pair. You have pot odds of 3:1 on your money so I would expect my opponent to call with hands that are beating me. Seriously what hands can AJ be beating? JTh & QTh would probably have played the flop differently with their massive draw. Maybe you could have AT. In my oppinion if he checks he is most likely going to lose the hand, but he saves half his stack. And in the unlikely event that you have AT you probably won't call for £10 anyway. Am I right?
Posted by jugglegeek

Yeah tbh cos of his smallish pre flop raise i was puttin him on KQ KJ maybe AQ but i was curious if anyone would shove on the river cos as ya say what are ya beatin ??

WHOAMI196

miss read ur post soz if i played the hand as bad as the villain lol and got to the river with half my stack in the middle with Ahigh, the only move is a check, dry board and your never folding a k here..

i like ur check on the river debs (the way its played) with a blank turn and a safe looking river giving you nearly the nuts! the only hand he may play the same way that got you beat is poss AA? basically id be quite chuffed with my hand there

But it all comes down to reads! if you think he was on the flush draw(or bluffin) checkin is the only way you gona make money for instance BUT on the flip side he may check back kq,kj,k10 putting you on the flush draw etc so therefore losing value. Betting or checking river is ok here imo.

but what would you have done if a heart came? sucks! did you put him on the draw?

for me i would have re-raised the flop! this is how i would play it, and in this situation im sure all the money would have got in the middle without the grief..ps imo you shudda three bet ak doesnt play well three handed

grantorino

Why no 3bet pre debs? I dont always 3bet here, but what you wrote above doesnt make much sense to me

I dont really like postflop line, but it depends a lot on your reasoning pre and reads

Dudeskin8

If he ISN'T playing strong hands pre than surely you should raise for value?

Good for you that you hit that's swell but that only happens 1/3rd of the time so I presume you check/fold if you miss, bit weak don't you think ?

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: IF i was the oppo:

If he ISN'T playing strong hands pre than surely you should raise for value? Good for you that you hit that's swell but that only happens 1/3rd of the time so I presume you check/fold if you miss, bit weak don't you think ?
Posted by Dudeskin8

Right for starters AK imo and always will be in a cash game is only A high , by lots of ure recent threads how many times have you got in a very sticky spot by gettin too much in the pot with AK ?? its quite alot isnt it ?? i only really get a bit mental pre with AA KK QQ ,  sometimes depending on reads i MAY have a wider range

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: IF i was the oppo:

Why no 3bet pre debs? I dont always 3bet here, but what you wrote above doesnt make much sense to me I dont really like postflop line, but it depends a lot on your reasoning pre and reads
Posted by grantorino

As i stated to dudeskin i really dont go overboard with AK , not in cash anyhow , ive been far far more profitable with it as played , i can fold cheaply on a missed flop OR when i hit i find i can get very well paid off , as i said ive spent alot of time watching tables at nl20-nl50 and seen enough evidence that this can be a very profitable way to play this hand

jugglegeek

In Response to Re: IF i was the oppo:

In Response to Re: IF i was the oppo : As i stated to dudeskin i really dont go overboard with AK , not in cash anyhow , ive been far far more profitable with it as played , i can fold cheaply on a missed flop OR when i hit i find i can get very well paid off , as i said ive spent alot of time watching tables at nl20-nl50 and seen enough evidence that this can be a very profitable way to play this hand
Posted by debdobs_67

I think that the reasons for 3-betting as standard with AK is that it puts pressure on your opponent when you likely have the best hand or (if they have pp<KK) are 50:50. This means that if they flat call you and you miss the flop you can represent and over pair; if they 4-bet you pre then you can 5-bet shove knowing that you might have some fold equity if you are deep enough or they are bluffing and if you get called only two hands have you behind. If they have KK you are still only 3:1 behind.

How this dynamic changes against calling stations who will open raise with any hand and then call a three bet because they think "well, in for a penny in for a pound" I don't know. Generally if you have had your 3-bet flat called it should be by small pocket pairs looking for a set or suited connectors looking for implied odds from hitting their straight/flush.

Batkin88

I think alot of people are missing the point of thread here, no i do not think shoving river is good here should of bet less and set up a decent shove on river if intending to go all way as opponent should know your not folding an ace here as not huge shove.
I think the reason for not 3 betting pre makes sense on basis your getting max value when you hit like above and your folding passively if missed.
AK is dominated by too many hands to 3 bet to a ridiculously aggro player alot of the time IMO on the basis that there shoving with any pair AQ or AJ or even AT and how are you reading them shoves.
Personally i would or raised the flop, but as played when turn card comes down calling the streets is fine IMO

YOUNG_GUN

Nope no point betting river

I would personally bet river unless you put them on fd as your gettin paid by anything but the hand they have

I also 3 bet pre to get value from hands we are beating

NColley

from your view v.lucky to get all the money on the river, shove turn..

from opponenets perspective, he should check back turn often.. he raised a flop bet into 2 players and got a call, unlikely to get villian to fold.

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: IF i was the oppo:

I think alot of people are missing the point of thread here, no i do not think shoving river is good here should of bet less and set up a decent shove on river if intending to go all way as opponent should know your not folding an ace here as not huge shove. I think the reason for not 3 betting pre makes sense on basis your getting max value when you hit like above and your folding passively if missed. AK is dominated by too many hands to 3 bet to a ridiculously aggro player alot of the time IMO on the basis that there shoving with any pair AQ or AJ or even AT and how are you reading them shoves. Personally i would or raised the flop, but as played when turn card comes down calling the streets is fine IMO
Posted by Batkin88

Eh? It dominates ALL other Aces and ALL Kings many of which a poor player will call a 3bet with pre (hence value), most pairs JJ and below will just call and if the flop is Q high e.g. then you can still bet and they find it hard to call. Oh and they can just fold pre outright.

Also @ Debs - Yes I've had a little run bad with AK but also had many decent pots winning with it too, yes you 3bet and miss and they hit sometimes but most times both miss and you take it down, playing it like you have you are forced to hit and imo that takes a lot value from it.

DOHHHHHHH

AK should be a standard 3b in almost every situation @ 30nl and below imo.

Because players love to call with dominated hands, and will normally only 4bet with better hands, (and QQ), I prefer a 3b fold to just a flat call most of the time.

Higher stakes players will tell you not to 3b fold it and "turn it into a bluff" and in most cases they'd be right, it's prob best to just get it in.....

But it is an option to 3b fold it v some players and still be pleased with how you played the hand.

DOHHHHHHH

As for the hand if I was oppo I'd check back turn and river becoz they're bad cards to bluff @!

grantorino

Debs I think you are better off 3betting here with your reads. Also if you only 3bet QQ+, you are getting to a level where people will start to notice

Postflop, I dont understand leading unless you want to get it in on the flop. I prefer c/c or c/r depending on villain. Once you play flop that way I dont think you can really lead turn, river idk you could bet to rep a busted flush if you think he is more likely to have a pair than a busted draw, but checking prob better

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: IF i was the oppo:

Debs I think you are better off 3betting here with your reads. Also if you only 3bet QQ+, you are getting to a level where people will start to notice Postflop, I dont understand leading unless you want to get it in on the flop. I prefer c/c or c/r depending on villain. Once you play flop that way I dont think you can really lead turn, river idk you could bet to rep a busted flush if you think he is more likely to have a pair than a busted draw, but checking prob better
Posted by grantorino

Well apart from the reason i gave earlier i also see AK as a big trapping hand when disguised , and im also as likely to 3 bet with KQ QJ J10 1010 and other sooted connectors so i shouldnt be that easy to read , hopefully

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: IF i was the oppo:

In Response to Re: IF i was the oppo : Well apart from the reason i gave earlier i also see AK as a big trapping hand when disguised , and im also as likely to 3 bet with KQ QJ J10 1010 and other sooted connectors so i shouldnt be that easy to read , hopefully
Posted by debdobs_67

Why would you 3bet these where if you're called are more likely to be behind but just call with AK which is more than likely ahead of most hands.

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: IF i was the oppo:

In Response to Re: IF i was the oppo : Why would you 3bet these where if you're called are more likely to be behind but just call with AK which is more than likely ahead of most hands.
Posted by Dudeskin8

Cos i ave to mix it up , tbf i can post hands where ive 3bet with AK but i do like to slow play it as well and as for your last comment on WHY WOULD I ?? well look at jj's hand the other day , why would ya 4bet as light as he did with 10J ??

Also dude mate lookin at ALOT of your threads recently dont ya think quite a few of ure oppos are gettin an easy read on ure play?? Cos what i see in ure bettin patterns is all the same , how come you dont mix it up a bit??

Batkin88

Dudeskin you can't just bold out parts of sentences so they make sense the way you want them too, the point of the thread is asking on oppo play. However again i will say again 3 betting against a ridiculously aggro player with AK isn't giving you any reads and isn't setting up a queen high flop bet for him to leave. He could hold anything if you both hit your stacking him if you miss you can leave cheap and wait for a better spot. I understand why AK is a 3 bet majority of time but from the way this player clearly plays surely this is the player you want to be trapping with AK. I am aware that you are far more experienced cash than me so i am not saying your wrong before anyone flies off the handle i just can see why trapping is getting value far more of the time than 3 betting here

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: IF i was the oppo:

In Response to Re: IF i was the oppo : Cos i ave to mix it up , tbf i can post hands where ive 3bet with AK but i do like to slow play it as well and as for your last comment on WHY WOULD I ?? well look at jj's hand the other day , why would ya 4bet as light as he did with 10J ?? Also dude mate lookin at ALOT of your threads recently dont ya think quite a few of ure oppos are gettin an easy read on ure play?? Cos what i see in ure bettin patterns is all the same , how come you dont mix it up a bit??
Posted by debdobs_67

First bold bit - Well if at NL20 you have started playing MANY REGS than it's of course good to have a wider range as they'll be tighter and you need to decieve them but I would think up to like NL30 pretty basic ABC works well, maybe I'm wrong.

2nd bold bit - LOL, gotta be loving this line, every session I start involves pretty much constantly moving tables till I find 3-4 with at least 3 decent fish on it and as you know from NL4 players like that DO NOT care what other people have. If I did just sit on first table I see (i.e. was lazy) I would most likely be on with other REGS and hence need to 'mix it up' as you say but I prefer to put myself in situations where that's not needed and also makes dis game very easy.

debdobs_67

How is it VERY EASY as you put it dudeskin when you are constantly asking for ADVICE on so many hands , that just does not make sense

debdobs_67

Just for the record i'll tell you what ive been doin , playin only 1 table at a time at nl20 , making as many notes as poss on oppo's and trying diff things to oppo's to see what there playbacks are like , i keep rinse and repeating this until im happy ive got pretty gd reads on players at this level , when i have then i will obv look for certain tables to play at , this is what i did at nl10 and found it worked very well.

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: IF i was the oppo:

How is it VERY EASY as you put it dudeskin when you are constantly asking for ADVICE on so many hands , that just does not make sense
Posted by debdobs_67

I ask for advice am I am always learning, and with more knolwedge I can get better and get to the stage where I need to ask less but for now I will ALWAYS ask when I want to.

Also yes it is VERY EASY as I put it but sadly this game has muchos variance so even if I play perfect I can still lose (of course I don't always play perfect but that's why I post hands ), for example last month I was up over 18 BI's over about 10k hands probably less which equates to 18.3bb/100 hands which is a farely strong win rate but this month I'm down just over 3 BI's in 6.5k hands because certain situations havent panned out but I am still very much sure this level is VERY EASY and it will only get hard if EVERY fish leaves and only REGS play which won't happen lol

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: IF i was the oppo:

Just for the record i'll tell you what ive been doin , playin only 1 table at a time at nl20 , making as many notes as poss on oppo's and trying diff things to oppo's to see what there playbacks are like , i keep rinse and repeating this until im happy ive got pretty gd reads on players at this level , when i have then i will obv look for certain tables to play at , this is what i did at nl10 and found it worked very well.
Posted by debdobs_67

Wow that must be tough, how do you maintain concentration, I get bored playing 3 now lol

When you say reads/notes are these like what they 3bet with and if they cbet flops and stuff, basically REG play ?

Generally when I make notes it's primarily to find out who the AWFUL/FISH players are and as soon as is phyisically possible (normally takes just 1-2 hands) which then helps me try and bleed them dry, in terms of REGS I prefer to just stay out their way if I can and finding out who they are is as easy as typing their name in find a player as most decent/competant players' brains would melt playing one table lol