Ok, whats the move? (MTT hand)

unknown_username

Hi guys. I dont play tourneys that often but i show a profit at them. Its a $1.10 25 runner MTT. Still sat reasonably deep. Not many reads, its been a fairly quiet table since i arrived a couple of orbits ago. Nice structure with 10 min blind increases so no rush to get too involved. Top 3 only get paid.

This happened, whats the right move? Seems a straight forward shove, just checking?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
bellyfis26	Small blind		25.00	25.00	3610.00
rst19	Big blind		50.00	75.00	9397.50
	Your hole cards	A Q
ellimae9	Fold
ten-jay	Fold
DrSharp	Raise		150.00	225.00	3465.00
bellyfis26	Fold
rst19	Call		100.00	325.00	9297.50
Flop
		10 9 8
rst19	Check
DrSharp	Bet		325.00	650.00	3140.00
rst19	Raise		650.00	1300.00	8647.50
DrSharp	???

pod1

i think shove mate, you got more outs than brighton!

grantorino

Dont see any reason to bet flop so big. Shoving looks fine, but I dont mind a call ip either

AMYBR

You see this was my issue.  I'd be raising smaller pre and on flop.  This hand has picked up momentum very quickly.

As it is I'm either making a committing 3 bet, as I'm happy getting it in with a call here, or jamming.  An argument can be made for jamming to win both ways i.e you pick it up without showdown and also getting called and winning a bigger pot at showdown.

But I dont really want customer to get away here, so i likely 3bet to 1450-1800 intending to snap a 4bet shove or getting rest in on any turn.

unknown_username

3xBB raise should be ok shouldnt it pre flop? I want to be building a decent size pot with a good hand like this dont i? I'm thinking 'Lets get the ball rolling' if i hit, it means i can get more out of the hand doesnt it? Dunno, maybe this is the cash player coming out in me. Should i be min raising pre with A,Q suited? Not sure i am comfortable doing this in a small MTT like this. Can you explain this more please AMYBR?

Yep, hands up, the pot size raise on the flop is too big. I genuinely do not know why i made it that big to be honest. All i can say is i am happy to be playing a big pot looking at it now. Should it be more like half pot/3/4 pot? :-S

Like i say, i dont play many MTT's but i do have success in them. In cash, i shove all day every day. Should i be more conservative with these types of hands as i cant just reload in an MTT freezout?

Just trying to tweak my MTT game. Thanks guys.

Dudeskin8

Pre good, too early to start 2.5xing it yet.

Flop bet about 210 pot is too much imo. Minraise then would be smaller and could maybe just call it but I prefer shove as played.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Ok, whats the move? (MTT hand):

You see this was my issue.  I'd be raising smaller pre and on flop.  This hand has picked up momentum very quickly. As it is I'm either making a committing 3 bet, as I'm happy getting it in with a call here, or jamming.  An argument can be made for jamming to win both ways i.e you pick it up without showdown and also getting called and winning a bigger pot at showdown. But I dont really want customer to get away here, so i likely 3bet to 1450-1800 intending to snap a 4bet shove or getting rest in on any turn.
Posted by AMYBR

I wouldnt think him folding is that bad for us, nearly all his range has decent equity against us

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Ok, whats the move? (MTT hand):

3xBB raise should be ok shouldnt it pre flop? I want to be building a decent size pot with a good hand like this dont i? I'm thinking 'Lets get the ball rolling' if i hit, it means i can get more out of the hand doesnt it? Dunno, maybe this is the cash player coming out in me. Should i be min raising pre with A,Q suited? Not sure i am comfortable doing this in a small MTT like this. Can you explain this more please AMYBR? Yep, hands up, the pot size raise on the flop is too big. I genuinely do not know why i made it that big to be honest. All i can say is i am happy to be playing a big pot looking at it now. Should it be more like half pot/3/4 pot? :-S Like i say, i dont play many MTT's but i do have success in them. In cash, i shove all day every day. Should i be more conservative with these types of hands as i cant just reload in an MTT freezout? Just trying to tweak my MTT game. Thanks guys.
Posted by DrSharp

I'll inbox you my reasoning behind this.  Its a key part of my overall strategy and I'm not as generous as Doh

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Ok, whats the move? (MTT hand):

In Response to Re: Ok, whats the move? (MTT hand) : I wouldnt think him folding is that bad for us, nearly all his range has decent equity against us
Posted by grantorino

That is one line.  But In this situation I am happier to get my chips across the line with a call.  As I said in the post you highlight, an argument can be made for both

grantorino

In Response to Re: Ok, whats the move? (MTT hand):

In Response to Re: Ok, whats the move? (MTT hand) : That is one line.  But In this situation I am happier to get my chips across the line with a call.  As I said in the post you highlight, an argument can be made for both
Posted by AMYBR

Well if I 3bet obv Im not folding, but I would think its more profitable for us when he folds than when we get it in (if Im wrong someone let me know why). I think hes unlikely to fold which is why I give serious thought to flatting getting decent odds

AMYBR

As said an argument can clearly be made for both.

Message is in your inbox meester sharp

rancid

shove all day long

delaney09

get it in only option tonnes of outs

unknown_username

In Response to Re: Ok, whats the move? (MTT hand):

As said an argument can clearly be made for both. Message is in your inbox meester sharp
Posted by AMYBR

Thanks mate. I'll get back to you once i have disected it ;-)

unknown_username

For the record, i shoved and he called showing a pair of Jacks. They held!

So i had, 2xJ 8xspades, 3xQ's and 3xA's  to hit. lol. i think thats 64%ish. You always think you could have done it better so i thought i would ask.

Thanks guys.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Ok, whats the move? (MTT hand):

For the record, i shoved and he called showing a pair of Jacks. They held! So i had, 2xJ 8xspades, 3xQ's and 3xA's  to hit. lol. i think thats 64%ish. You always think you could have done it better so i thought i would ask. Thanks guys.
Posted by DrSharp

Qs arent outs, even if they were you wouldnt have 64 % equity. The rule of 4 doesnt work for large numbers of outs

You have just under 46% equity on that board

unknown_username

In Response to Re: Ok, whats the move? (MTT hand):

In Response to Re: Ok, whats the move? (MTT hand) : Qs arent outs, even if they were you wouldnt have 64 % equity. The rule of 4 doesnt work for large numbers of outs You have just under 46% equity on that board
Posted by grantorino

Yeah sorry Q's arent any good. My bad, read it wrong!

Right, how do i work the equity out in my head then? If i take the Q's out of my outs i would have 3xA's, 8xspades and 2xJ's correct? If so thats 13 outs so the rule of 4 brings it to 52% but how do you get to 46%? Also, when do i stop using the rule of 4?

Think i have a major leak in my game!

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Ok, whats the move? (MTT hand):

In Response to Re: Ok, whats the move? (MTT hand) : Thanks mate. I'll get back to you once i have disected it ;-)
Posted by DrSharp

Just received your PM.  Am just heading out for live game, so will answer when I get back bud.  Still having issues Pm'ing from firefox.

Its great you ask questions bud.  How can anyones approach be any good if it cant stand external scrutiny? :P

Depending on how I do I'll get back to you in the AM or tomorrow.