Bet size against what I think is a 3bet bluff?

Patching99

Hi all, been away for a while and got in this situation.  I felt oppo was at it and went for the smallest 4bet that I think I could get through.  Is there any merit in this or should I have just shoved???

Patching99	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£4.18
harpomarks	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£15.90
	Your hole cards	3 3
gingpete05	Fold
Vespillo	Fold
33allin	Fold
Patching99	Raise		£0.18	£0.24	£4.00
harpomarks	Raise		£0.52	£0.76	£15.38
Patching99	Raise		£0.80

Lambert180

I don't see how that 4bet can get through anything to be honest. I'd never be 4-betting here, certainly not at 4NL. I suppose you could call just to set mine but I'd probably just let it go to a 3bet of that size.

I'd be aware of the fact he's 3BIs up on the table as well, he could be a maniac but often maniacs don't get this far up by complete luck.

Dudeskin8

Just call and setmine, 4betting is terribad at this level as once he raises he is NEVER folding unless he is one of the_Don's friends, see BBV section lol.

AcidMan27

Why did you think the oppo was at it ?

DOHHHHHHH

Bluffing @ nl4........ ???

If you're 4b/folding, then anything in the 90s is good. Prob 99p.

If you open smaller, everything will be cheaper.

But your hand has some value.....

I'd fold it now though. even though you think he's bluffing, you also have to have the read that he will fold if you play back.

If you think he will fold,(wont peel off a flop) I spose it's fine.

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Bet size against what I think is a 3bet bluff?:

Bluffing @ nl4........ ??? If you're 4b/folding, then anything in the 90s is good. Prob 99p. If you open smaller, everything will be cheaper. But your hand has some value..... I'd fold it now though. even though you think he's bluffing, you also have to have the read that he will fold if you play back. If you think he will fold,(wont peel off a flop) I spose it's fine.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

You would fold to his first reraise and not setmine ?

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Bet size against what I think is a 3bet bluff?:

In Response to Re: Bet size against what I think is a 3bet bluff? : You would fold to his first reraise and not setmine ?
Posted by Dudeskin8

Yeah I agree with this. You're calling a 52p raise with the intention of set-mining, and even if you hit, the best you could ever hope to get is £4 because you only got 100BBs. Maybe if you were as deep as him it would make sense as you could be getting his full £15 (or a big chunk of it), but you're only playing for your £4.

Too steep to set mine for me.

AMYBR

Raising for nearly 25% of your stack as a bluff vs ppl who just wont fold doesnt sit right with me.

Especially as if you make a set multi way here (with a flat) you are going to get huge value.

Patching99

Okay will try and cover all points raised, saw him build up his stack and he wasn't a maniac.

I thought calling a 3bet to set mine was a bad idea, surely this is just throwing away pennies.  But suppose if he does peel off a flop I'm in a world of pain unless I miracle a set.

I was thinking I would 4bet fold to a shove which is why I tried to keep as low as possible but which would hopefully get through.  If I 4bet and call a shove, even if he is at it, i'm prob up against two overcards.

Dohhh - open smaller???  Its blind on blind.. do you think I should open less than I did?

Anyone think a shove is better than what I did?

Patching99

In Response to Re: Bet size against what I think is a 3bet bluff?:

Raising for nearly 25% of your stack as a bluff vs ppl who just wont fold doesnt sit right with me. Especially as if you make a set multi way here (with a flat) you are going to get huge value.
Posted by AMYBR

Only two of us left in the hand.

AMYBR

This is true, my apologies. 

(Community award for most apologies rendered after mis reading posted hands?)

4bet with dynamic not so bad then.

DOHHHHHHH

His raise is to 50p, we are playing 4 quid effective....

So we got 3.50 behind to win if we flop a set.

We flop a set 1/7 times....

To justify peeling we would have to stack him 100% of the time to justify the call.

3.50/7 = 50p (the size of his 3b)

If he never ever folds then it's about a break even play, assuming we check fold every time we miss.

If we open smaller, he 3bets smaller, and our immediate and implied odds are better, so it might be more appealling to set mine......

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Bet size against what I think is a 3bet bluff?:

Okay will try and cover all points raised, saw him build up his stack and he wasn't a maniac. I thought calling a 3bet to set mine was a bad idea, surely this is just throwing away pennies.  But suppose if he does peel off a flop I'm in a world of pain unless I miracle a set. I was thinking I would 4bet fold to a shove which is why I tried to keep as low as possible but which would hopefully get through.  If I 4bet and call a shove, even if he is at it, i'm prob up against two overcards. Dohhh - open smaller???  Its blind on blind.. do you think I should open less than I did? Anyone think a shove is better than what I did?
Posted by Patching99

So he's not a maniac, he's been solid and built up slowly and yet you show no respect from his pretty big 3-bet. Good players at this level do not 3-bet with the intention of folding to a 4bet, FACT!

Set-mining (at 4NL) is exactly what you do with these tiny PPs, it's not throwing away pennies if you know that when you hit your set, you're gonna win about 8 times what you've risked pre. So if it's 20p pre, 7 times you don't hit a set, you lose £1.40 and the one time you hit the sit, you win £3, thats a profitable play. Set-mining is what it says on the tin. The more you pay to set-mine, the harder it is to be profitable.

Yes... at this level, you will be surrounded by fish who don't pay much if any attention to your bet sizing. You could have made it much cheaper with the plan to set-mine because it's usually easy to get the chips in against alot of players at this level.

Patching99

In Response to Re: Bet size against what I think is a 3bet bluff?:

His raise is to 50p, we are playing 4 quid effective.... So we got 3.50 behind to win if we flop a set. We flop a set 1/7 times.... To justify peeling we would have to stack him 100% of the time to justify the call. 3.50/7 = 50p (the size of his 3b) If he never ever folds then it's about a break even play, assuming we check fold every time we miss. If we open smaller, he 3bets smaller, and our immediate and implied odds are better, so it might be more appealling to set mine......
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

But doesn't opening less mean I pick up his blind less, more likely to induce a 3bet.  Plus if I do get a call from a smaller open, it will be harder to get full stack in the middle. 

Patching99

In Response to Re: Bet size against what I think is a 3bet bluff?:

In Response to Re: Bet size against what I think is a 3bet bluff? : So he's not a maniac, he's been solid and built up slowly and yet you show no respect from his pretty big 3-bet. Good players at this level do not 3-bet with the intention of folding to a 4bet, FACT! Set-mining (at 4NL) is exactly what you do with these tiny PPs, it's not throwing away pennies if you know that when you hit your set, you're gonna win about 8 times what you've risked pre. So if it's 20p pre, 7 times you don't hit a set, you lose £1.40 and the one time you hit the sit, you win £3, thats a profitable play. Set-mining is what it says on the tin. The more you pay to set-mine, the harder it is to be profitable. Yes... at this level, you will be surrounded by fish who don't pay much if any attention to your bet sizing. You could have made it much cheaper with the plan to set-mine because it's usually easy to get the chips in against alot of players at this level.
Posted by Lambert180

Isn't it a very small 3bet?

offshoot

just fold to the 3bet. too much fancy play syndrome to start min4bet bluffing at nl4. If he bluffed you he bluffed you its no big deal.

Also i dont think you need to make 4bets a minbet anyweay because you shouldnt have a 4bet bluffing range.

DOHHHHHHH

At nl4 you can bet big and even overbet multiple streets for value post flop when you have a value hand. 

At the mo you're basically blind stealing, you want your steels to be cheap.

Small pairs have some value though, I wouldn't like to fold it pre flop if I could help it.

You're probz over thinking the level with all this talk of inducing, 3/4 bet bluffing etc. 

Play as many tables as possible, make hands, bet big, do alot of folding inbetween, don't bluff and print money.

Patching99

In Response to Re: Bet size against what I think is a 3bet bluff?:

At nl4 you can bet big and even overbet multiple streets for value post flop when you have a value hand.  At the mo you're basically blind stealing, you want your steels to be cheap. Small pairs have some value though, I wouldn't like to fold it pre flop if I could help it. You're probz over thinking the level with all this talk of inducing, 3/4 bet bluffing etc.  Play as many tables as possible, make hands, bet big, do alot of folding inbetween, don't bluff and print money.
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Nice one cheers.  Just getting back into it so only 2 tabling at the time which may have something to do with overthinking it, I can't remember ever doing anything like this before and would normally just fold to the 3bet and move on.

jugglegeek

This is an insta-fold. folded round to the small blind with 33 you should make it 12p, If he 3-bets then fold because he either has overs or more likely (if he's a solid player) an over pair. If he has absolute rubbish then you steal 4p if he has something he might just call to see a flop. Your plan then is to not put in another penny until you see another 3. Then bet like crazy untill you have all your chips in the middle.

Play more tables at once and playing like this will not tilt you. If you were playing £1/£2 and you open raised from the small blind things are different. Most LAGs will 3-bet you with any two just to see what you're made of. In this case you might think more seriously about a 4-bet bluff if you have solid reads because people can fold a hand at £1/£2.